Anathema - The silent enigma

We meet Vincent Cavanagh backstage at the main stage of the Alcatraz, about four hours before Anathema's Milan performance. A curious character: he greets us sitting on a small sofa with a broad grin plastered on his face, which clashes rather strikingly with the conspicuous scar he has above his eyebrow. For a moment, the idea flashes through my mind of breaking the ice by asking how he got it: I decide to think twice and save the question for the end, only to forget about it entirely. He's the one who ends up making the first move instead: "So you're here for OndaRock, I see! You call yourselves that just for fun, but you don't only cover that kind of music, right?"

And how can you blame him? The production team tells us we have all the time we want, until he's the one to signal it's time to wrap up: in the end we hold out for half an hour, nearly getting kicked out halfway through over an unwelcome flashback. Saying it was worth it, though, is putting it mildly.

Well, let me start by asking you this: I read around that in some interviews you said that "Distant Satellites" is the album you're proudest of, the one where you truly put everything of yourselves into it...

Where did you read that?

I don't have the source right here, actually, but it was definitely an English-language site. I dug up quite a few of your interviews to write a monograph about you together with my friend and colleague Michele Bordi!

Monograph? Wow, all the way from "Serenades"? I would never have had the patience for a job like that... Anyway, this whole "Distant Satellites" story isn't true at all.

Right, here's my point: I wanted to ask you if it was true, and whether you agree with seeing it as a culmination of the path you've been exploring since "A Natural Disaster" onward...

No, no. Put more simply, it's a natural culmination of the sound we've developed from 'Seranades' up to today. Our sound evolves along a single line, and I won't have anyone talking about some kind of rupture. There's only one road, and it's brought us to where we are today. I'm fairly satisfied with the album, but what really excites me is being able to play it live now: it's an imperfect record, like all records are, and with hindsight we could always have done better, as usual. But it's precisely live that it starts to make sense: if there's something you know you got wrong on the record, live you can correct it; if you feel you could have gone in a different direction, live you can do it. I'm satisfied with the songs, that much is true. And I honestly believe this tour's setlist is the best we've ever had, and the best we could have today. That, yes, I'm satisfied with. If you want to know which album I'm most satisfied with, then I'd say 'We're Here Because We're Here'. And right behind it, 'Weather Systems'.

...which is my favorite, I confess.

Mine too, I "confess" as well. But the point is that every album should, in my view, be a spur to do better. It has everything to do with the process that leads to the record: the songs, sure, but also the chemistry with the people you work with, how quickly you record it, learning from your own mistakes...

...I think this holds true outside the creative field too!

Absolutely, no doubt about it, it's true in life in general! I think it applies to you too when you write an article, even if there you always have the excuse of opinion: everything's subjective. I never read reviews, and you know why? Because I couldn't care less. I have an opinion, you have another, everyone has their own and that's the end of it. I've never understood why so many people find it so fucking hard to accept that that's how things are, and insist on treating their opinions as more important or more correct than everyone else's. The only reviews I actually care about are my own.

In my opinion, on 'Distant Satellites' the atmosphere has changed quite a bit compared to your previous work. There's a darker, more melancholic mood, in some ways perhaps more mature. What's behind this shift in tone?

The lyrics do indeed deal with fairly deep things, full of references to people closely tied to our personal lives. On 'We're Here Because We're Here' and 'Weather Systems' there was a spiritual element, but it had little to do with anything concrete, it referred to more abstract things, distant from us. I also think Danny has reached the peak of his songwriting this time: I much prefer it when he speaks from the heart rather than the mind, when he writes about emotions rather than stereotypes. I mean, I definitely prefer the lyrics of a song like 'One Last Goodbye' over those of 'Everything', there's really no comparison. It's certainly darker overall too, but don't ask me to explain why. We're not one of those bands that sits around a table and says, "well, on the next record we want to do this." We go wherever we feel like going at a given moment, we let ourselves be carried by whatever inspiration strikes, and this time it went in that direction. We've simply ended up here today, and who knows where or how we'll change tomorrow: we will change, for sure, but we won't force it.

It seemed to me you leaned heavily into orchestral arrangements and strings compared to the past, especially in the first half of the album. Why is that? How did you come to bring an orchestra into your music?

The first time was during the 'A Natural Disaster' tour, although actually that time we played with a cellist. But that was the first approach. Then the continuation of that path was 'Hindsight': that's where we realized our music could really draw new life from being played entirely acoustically. On 'We're Here Because We're Here', on the other hand, there's nothing like that, because we wanted a real orchestra but it would have cost too much, so we made do by recording parts and then layering them in during mixing. Generally speaking we loved that kind of sound so much that it led us to make an entirely orchestral record, 'Falling Deeper', but it's something we can't really afford to do properly. The other occasion where we played with an actual orchestra was the concert in Plovdiv, the one recorded on 'Universal', another wonderful experience, but one we'll hardly ever be able to repeat. So yes, on 'Distant Satellites' the orchestral elements are there, but they're all in the background, we didn't play with any orchestra. We like this dialogue between those sounds, the typically rock sounds of guitar, bass, drums and keyboards, and electronics. That's more or less the recipe behind 'Distant Satellites'.

Actually the electronic dimension of the second half of the album surprised me quite a bit, in a good way of course. How did you get into those sounds?

Actually it's all a lot less new than you think. I've been listening to electronic music since I was a kid, I was barely twenty when I discovered Aphex Twin and was completely blown away. We really never made this kind of music in the past, maybe simply because we didn't have the right tools: we didn't have synthesizers, or a drum machine, and none of us knew how to use software. We managed to buy a drum machine four years ago, and we've been working with it ever since, before that it was simply impossible. I think I personally gave it a big push, because I've always loved that kind of electronic music full of rhythmic interplay, complex time signatures, frenzy, music that's electronic, sure, but still able to convey real feeling. I can't stand all that computer-made stuff that just sounds like endless mindless copy-pasting of the same structures. In any case, on the latest album we gathered together research we'd already been sowing in the studio for a few years.

In fact, already on 'Weather Systems', two years ago, the verse in the first half of 'The Storm Before The Calm' was built entirely on a drum machine rhythm. That track, incidentally, was written by John (Douglas, ed.): did he also play a part in your move toward electronics?

You want the truth? John wrote that track back in 2005, it's just that for the reasons I explained before we weren't ready to release it. I'll tell you more: 'Distant Satellites' (the title track of the album of the same name, ed.) actually dates back to the Nineties! Only now do we have the tools to work on those sounds, and we know exactly how we want to use them. Most of the music I listen to these days is completely electronic: I don't like bands, I can't stand rock (laughs). Except for Trail Of Dead, obviously. I love Trail Of Dead. But I much prefer artists who work on their own. And a lot of them make electronic music, like Jon Hopkins for instance...

...who I actually think comes through a lot on the title track of 'Distant Satellites'!

Really? Well, that doesn't surprise me, because I'm pretty sure I had 'Immunity' on loop on the CD player around the time I was working on the arrangement for that track. But it's also true that nobody else in the band knew Jon Hopkins... him or others I've introduced Danny and the rest to. For instance, I really like James Blake, and like him, all those kids doing amazing things with bass music. I like Trentemøller, or maybe I should say "I liked", because now he's doing all these things involving indie musicians... which, sure, are nice, for God's sake, but I prefer 'The Last Resort', there's really no comparison. Then I like... well, I really love instrumental music. I call it soundtrack music, which is wrong, I hear people calling it "modern classical" out there but I find that label even more nauseating. I mean people like Clint Mansell, Jóhann Jóhannsson, Max Richter...

… what about Nils Frahm?

Uh, I've heard the name but I still have to dig deeper into his stuff, I've only heard one recent track made entirely with synth and piano and it intrigued me quite a bit (he's referring to "Says", ed.). Oh, and I also love David Wingo, who composed the score for "Take Shelter", the film that the last track on "Distant Satellites" is named after. Anyway, all people who make music on their own — the only band I'm devoted to and love is my own! And Trail Of Dead…

But why this passion for Trail Of Dead, if I may ask?

But why this passion for Anathema, if I may ask? (laughs)

Something I'm curious about: how do you feel about playing all together as a family, three siblings plus two more?

Well, it's a hugely important aspect, maybe the real reason we play together! We're a big family, in the sense that John is my brother too and Lee is my sister too! We're always together, even when we're not making music, that's our most important trait as a band. Especially when it comes to me, Danny and John: try to take us and keep us apart from each other, or make us play separately, and you'll see we're just not capable of it. It would be like each of us losing a part of ourselves.

John's importance, even on a personal level, is actually little known to those who see a “Cavanagh core” in the band. I even recall reading that during the period when he left the band (between 1997 and 1998, ed.) both you and Danny struggled a lot to find your balance…

Yes, that's true, but fortunately it didn't last long and it was a long time ago. Back then John simply couldn't cope. We were all having a blast, it was the era when clubs were booming and we went out dancing a lot, John let himself go and at a certain age he started taking drugs. Mainly ecstasy. Pretty soon it got out of hand and for a few months you'd only see him on Friday and Saturday nights, and the rest of the days he'd spend at home sleeping. He was always sleeping (laughs) but once he got better and came back we welcomed him right away as if nothing had happened. In the end that was the right thing to do, everyone has their low moments and he's been part of the band since we were sixteen, finding him again after that period was like when a brother comes back home: you're so happy to have him back that you don't even remember how long he was gone or why. But that was back in the Nineties, huh… (first signs of annoyance)

Anyway, from what I understand you went through quite a few rough patches in those years. Even absorbing the loss of Duncan must not have been easy…

Duncan? What's he got to do with this now? What do you have to tell me about him? (visibly irritated tone)

Nothing, I just meant it must have been another rather complicated moment for you to deal with. In the end he…

Come on. Aside from the fact that he was the one who left, nobody kicked him out. Nobody went up to him and said “hey man, get out of here”, he was the one who told us “hey guys, I'm out of here”. He definitely couldn't keep going on clashing with Danny every single day like he was doing: they'd become unbearable, worse than two mothers-in-law, always there arguing and bickering over any fucking little thing. They cared about each other, sure, but you know how it is when you get fed up with your girlfriend and even if you still love her or care about her, even her breathing gets on your nerves? Well, it was like that. So Duncan left and that was the end of it, we'd already set off down a different path. He was the one who wanted to leave, so for us there was nothing to deal with or get over. But then, damn it… (pause, here the irritation reaches its peak)… we're talking about sixteen years ago, sixteen fucking years ago. How old were you sixteen years ago? Three? Four? There you go, just so you understand how much goddamn time has passed. Why are we talking about this today? Who cares? I don't care about talking about the past, a past in which we were forced to swallow bags of shit constantly. All important experiences we don't disown, that was still us. But then? Then you move on! You get it? You-move-on! (spelled out for emphasis). And now we're something else, why do we have to talk about back then? We're still here, right? That's what matters, damn it, nothing else. We're still here! We're-still-here! (same as before) And you want to know why we're still here? Because we didn't give a damn, okay? About money, about success, about our own bullshit, about everything! We kept going straight down our own path! And if it hadn't been like that, we wouldn't be talking today! And all we want to do now is keep going down that path, enjoying today, strengthened by yesterday and without thinking about tomorrow! But being strengthened by yesterday also means having moved past it, not talking about it as if it were something current. It isn't, damn it, it isn't.

Let's talk setlists: I noticed that in this summer's shows you brought back quite a bit of material from your past albums, even “Sleepless” from the first one, while on this tour you've focused exclusively on the last three records. How come?

This summer we were doing dress rehearsals to figure out which songs to put in the tour setlist, we'd play more old tracks in a given night to see how the crowd reacted, knowing we'd pick at most one of them. But the real answer to give you is something else… wait, what day is it today? (the irritation slowly turns into sarcasm…). October 6th, 2014, right? Well, you've answered your own question: what's the point of playing stuff from '98 today?

So then why on earth did you play “Sleepless” this summer?

L'we did it once, in Australia, it was the first time we'd gone to Australia and we tried playing “Sleepless”, which we hadn't done in years. People got pissed off, four cats listened to it and it looked like they were about to throw up last night's dinner. We decided we'd never play it again. (…pause…) I don't think it's right to keep playing songs that don't reflect who we are. They reflect who we were, sure, they're in our hearts. But at forty, do you see yourself the same way you did as a kid? No, and yet you're still you. That's the point: today we are what we play. And in fact tonight we'll also play “Fragile Dreams” because people still love it, but that can't go on forever. It'll be the next one out of the setlist, and you won't have to wait for the end of this tour for it to happen.

And don't you think this might upset longtime fans?

Longtime. Oh, you said it, not me. Longtime means they love the memory of us, not us. Whoever really loves us, loves us for who we are today; whoever loves our past simply doesn't love us anymore. And I think that's fair enough too. Then again, never say never eh, maybe one day we'll feel like doing a special tour just to dust off the whole old repertoire. In the end we love every song of ours, from the best to the worst, from “…And I Lust” (the opening track of the debut EP “The Crestfallen”, 1992, ed.) to “Take Shelter” (the closer of “Distant Satellites”, ed.), so a comeback could even be fun for us. But it would be a 20XX Anathema show playing Anathema from the Nineties, basically a cover band of ourselves. The lads might even like the idea maybe, but I don't like cover bands… I already don't like bands, let alone cover bands…

I noticed that since this summer you've started swapping positions and instruments on stage a lot… How come?

Well, simply because we all play different instruments: both Danny and I play keyboards, John likes fiddling around with drum machines and electronic percussion, Daniel plays basically anything, only Jamie has the bass and he holds onto that… We tried it once and it worked out well to mix things up a bit, it's more stimulating and more fun, even if of course we can't overdo it. Then again, after twenty years you do get tired of always doing the same thing: Danny's been playing guitar for twenty years, John's been behind the drums for twenty years, and so on… Thanks to Daniel joining, we now have the chance to do more things and have a more dynamic setup, and we really enjoy that.

Speaking finally a bit about the future: I heard that next year Danny will be doing some shows with Anneke Van Giesbergen, maybe even a new covers album… Do you know anything about that?

Actually, no. I dunno, ask him!

To wrap up, let me ask you something about Italy, since you'll be playing here in just a few hours…

Well, I love Italy and I love Italians. I like the fact that they're such warm, open people. Our history here goes back to '98, we recorded “Judgement” in Italy (at Damage Studios in Ventimiglia, to be precise, ed.). I can also tell you it's a place I always enjoy having lunch in, because the food is amazing and… well, the places are beautiful, people sing well, you've got loads of great singers, especially female voices, and I like the people. Did I already mention I like the people? (laughs)

Yes, and thank you, although to be honest I don't feel very Italian myself…

Ah, why, do you think I feel English? Yes, I was born in Liverpool, big deal… I can say I feel European, Western, whatever you want to call it, but I don't feel English. The way I see it, English people are… work… football… booze… zero interests, zero passion. That's not me, damn it, that's absolutely not me at all. And anyway, I've been living in Paris for years, and we all live in different places: John and Lee are still in Liverpool, Daniel lives in Portugal, Danny in London after many years in Norway, and Jamie in the Netherlands. We're Europeans, and maybe not even that.

At the end of the interview, we say goodbye to Vincent, agreeing to meet again that same evening. Before leaving, I ask him whether, in his opinion, the interview went on too long:

“Did I bust your balls too much?”

“Not at all, I like interviews. Why?”

“Someone from your management suggested I stop if I noticed you were getting fed up…”

“What a load of bullshit. Are you sure he wasn't thinking of Danny? I'm pretty calm, actually, except after gigs - after a show I need to have a beer and do nothing for a couple of hours, because I really give everything during the concerts. Danny's more moody, usually he's more of a gentleman than me, but try dealing with him after he's had a bad night's sleep... You're better off staying away from him, well away”.

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