John Lydon - Confessions of a Punk Heretic

John Lydon joined us live from his home in Malibu, California, to talk with us and promote the upcoming new tour of Public Image Ltd, which will also stop in my city, Genoa, on July 21st, at the Arena del Mare at the Porto Antico, thanks to organizers Mojotic and Aluha. A special thanks to Valentina Risaliti and Ilaria Chinelli, who made this interview possible.

Hi John! How are you?

Hey! Very good! How's it going?

Good! I'd like to start by talking about your passion for German cosmic music - you're a fan of artists like Can and their album “Tago Mago”. How did these sounds influence you?

It's very emotional music, you can find a lot of meaning and humanity in it. There's another band I adore, ERA, who range from Spanish folk to techno/trance music - I find them excellent. My mind travels through this music. I can do the same listening to a three-minute song by the Kinks. With Ray Davies or with Bryan Ferry, whom I love and adore: thanks to the way they write, they manage to pull me into their scenarios, into a vision of their world, and that's a very generous thing. I get the same feeling from reading books.

Yes, it has the same power.

Exactly.

Are there any kraut records or artists you consider fundamental to you? I used to listen to Guru Guru before...

Ahah! Guru Guru are great! You know, I saw Neu! live once, and afterwards I bought their first album as an import for 19 pence! “Neu! live” was a great experience, I loved the sound of their guitar, the rhythm was really interesting and they were also a lot of fun. Kraftwerk, on the other hand, were cold and detached, but they did it so well! The track of theirs I still listen to with great pleasure today is “The Model”. It almost reminds me of Charlie Chaplin! (laughs). It's wonderful to keep discovering new things - the more alive you are, the more you should keep learning.

When was the first time you heard about these artists and this musical style, kraut-rock?

I have to thank the Virgin Music Store, because they were the first to import records, and then the covers of these albums sent me a kind of message, especially Tangerine Dream. I'd take whatever work I could find just to be able to buy these records. So, first the artwork would catch my attention, and then the music - these absurd soundscapes, these delightful visions: I loved every second of those records. It doesn't happen to me very often nowadays, also because it's hard to be original and free in a world dominated by major labels that only want hits.

Did you follow the French scene? Magma, Univers Zero...

Yes, actually I've never divided artists by nationality, to me they were like languages in their own right. I'm not that interested in digging into the history of every single member of a band either, I don't find any joy in that, I'd rather listen and figure out whether what's in front of me can be interesting to me or not. That's how it should be. Going to record shops when I was young was an adventure - I bought “Trout Mask Replica” by Captain Beefheart because I liked the cover.

Which is fantastic...

Yes, a fish head, a carp! (laughs) I thought, there's a very particular sense of humour here, and indeed there was.

Absolutely.

But very intelligent. Magnificent.

And do you still go to record shops today to discover new sounds?

Every now and then, yes. But it's rare to find good ones.

Here in Genoa we're lucky, we've always had really great record shops and we're still doing well: Black Widow, Flamingo, Disco Club to name a few. Since you're into kraut, space rock and the like, you'll find plenty to sink your teeth into if you have time to take a look around.

That would be great, the only thing that worries me is that since I'm travelling, it's hard to carry records around and have space to put them somewhere... haha! Life is full of problems, but this is one of the nice ones to have. I really do have a huge collection and there's very little I'm missing or want, but I'm open to surprises. Also, a big part of my collection stayed in England, here in America I mostly buy CDs. Unfortunately a lot of my records were damaged in a fire in London, a real shame, because I wasn't able to replace a lot of rare reggae material that's no longer available. I also own some very expensive turntables, back then I'd rather starve than not have them! I used to play loads of Jamaican dub 7-inches on them, recorded terribly, and it had a certain effect playing them on these very expensive turntables. But that's just how I am, even with clothes, I love expensive pieces but also second-hand ones, I combine the two to my own taste.

I'd also like to talk about your 1996 solo album, "Psycho's Path", I remember when it came out I liked it a lot, I found it very influenced by the electronic scene of the time. And you also took part in a track by the electronic duo Leftfield ("Open Up").

It was influenced by my madness! (laughs). I used some very unusual sounds for that record, like a canary, even fax paper rolls, to create the right vibe. It's full of stuff like that! I didn't need a drum machine. If you listen carefully, there are some really strange and unusual sounds throughout the record.

Are you happy with the final result? I think the track "Open Up" with Leftfield was a very interesting experiment. Were you involved in the 90s trip-hop and drum'n'bass scene?

Yes. I was on my own without a band, I liked it and I'm satisfied. As for drum'n'bass, yes, it's like rap, there's a lot I don't like but other things I find fantastic, when I worked with Afrika Bambaataa it was the early days of hip-hop, it was exciting to record that way. What I don't like, though, is the gangster side, talking about shooting people, hating, in that case they completely misread the original message. Then in drum'n'bass, obviously, whoever made a record must have put in the drums and the bass (laughs)... Joking aside, I've always loved dance music, techno, I know where it comes from, I know the beats, I know Kool & The Gang, I love the Ohio Players, so for me it was a natural progression, I also love early Diana Ross (here John starts singing a song, ed. note). You know, back in the day I used to be friends with prostitutes, and that was the music they listened to and loved. Everything influences you, I'd be an idiot otherwise, I don't live in a box.

So also psychedelic funk music like George Clinton and Funkadelic?

Yes, of course, Parliament too, I love those weird acid landscapes! (laughs).

You took part in the film "Copkiller" by Roberto Faenza, with Harvey Keitel. How did that come about?

Robert! Haha, there's a line he always used on set: "Come on, guys, come on" (shouting, ed. note), I thought he was telling me "die" haha ("die" in English is spelled that way but sounds like the Italian word "dai", ed. note). It made me laugh, it was really funny, it was great to be part of that film, but it was hard watching Harvey Keitel do the "method actor" thing, I think he overdid it, you shouldn't believe you're really the person you're playing, because you're not. Doing that, you deceive yourself, acting is a pretence, it's powerful, sure, but it is, precisely, a fiction. At that time I couldn't get any dates for PiL, we were trying to move to New York, Keith Levene (the guitarist, ed. note) had gotten hooked on heroin though and that made him not very pleasant to be around, and I wasn't very happy. Somehow I got in touch with the production of this film and went to the auditions, the first reading was terrible, I knew nothing about acting. Then there was a party with Robert De Niro, Lou Reed, the usual New York intellectuals (laughs), I hated all of them, and in that moment I found the character I would play in "Copkiller": myself! That's just how I am... haha!

Are you interested in film and in composing soundtracks?

I'd love to do both, but I don't have any offers. The ones I got were pretty mediocre, underpaid and demanded too much work - I couldn't put in that much time. Besides, those projects are very scattered and you never know if they'll actually see the light of day.

About a month ago I interviewed director Richard Stanley, with whom you collaborated both on videos for Pil and on the soundtrack for his film "Hardware" with the track "The Order Of Death". What memories do you have of that?

Wonderful! That song fit perfectly into the film "Hardware", and it was also used in the TV series "Miami Vice" - and even in that case it was an incredible match, even though the two things are very different from each other. We recorded that track with Keith Levene, very instrumental at the start.

Both in the "Miami Vice" episode and in "Hardware", the song is really striking, it fits the scenes of both productions amazingly well.

I think a good track should be able to express itself in different contexts.

You've lived in California for many years now - how do you see the current political situation?

My whole life I've despised politicians in general, because they ask you to believe their lies and never do what they promise - politics isn't an option for me. Donald Trump isn't a politician, that's clear, he doesn't know when to shut up, but I like that, I find it fascinating because he's a real human being with his flaws, he's good at business and he does what he says. Here in California especially, the Democrats had become truly corrupt and incredibly stupid, hypocrites who'd go along with, yes, any change whatsoever...

So you don't have a very high opinion of the whole woke phenomenon...

Look, as far as I'm concerned you can be whatever you want, I won't have any problem with that, but don't insist that I call you by some string of strange pronouns (laughs). If you're standing there with a beard and a penis, I'm not going to call you "madame"! You're not my mother and you can't have children, it's madness to try to reverse that biological process, it's nonsense. We have the right to our language, and all of a sudden a political party tells us we have to change it?! I have issues with the left precisely because of things like this, but that doesn't make me a right-wing man: like a bird, I need two wings to fly, with the body in the middle.

Are you working on new material for Public Image Ltd?

Oh, yes! But before I get seriously back to work I need to get out of the house again - I'm coming out of a very hard period and I needed some isolation, now I've come through it (John recently suffered the loss of his beloved wife Nora and his best friend Rambo, ed.). Now all the good moments I shared with my wife are in my head, in a positive way, I'm hyper-energetic and I feel the need to get out there again. The band has been very kind to me, now we're going to start rehearsing for the tour and recording an album that, let's say, could be ready by January. Since we have our own label, we have to book everything in advance, there are a lot of complications to consider, and raising money for these things isn't easy - we have to work to live!

You've talked about the pain of losing your wife to Alzheimer's, you wrote the track "Hawaii" for her - it struck me deeply because my mother has had the same condition for a few years now, and I understand what it means to deal with all that; being at a family member's side in these conditions isn't easy, and you've been very open about discussing it.

Yes, it's true, it's extremely hard, I wanted her to die happy, and I managed that, but it nearly killed me too - you have to give up so much, your own ego, you have to be able to adapt moment by moment, it's exhausting. But I was lucky, because Nora had an enormous sense of humour - strange for a German, ha! - so there was a lot of hilarity and satisfaction in it too, I realised that how you approach this illness really matters. I didn't want to put her in a care home with strangers, and she never forgot me. I managed to get her to listen to the song "Hawaii" and she told me: "Beautiful song, but why are you crying, you're ruining it!". I should have performed it with joy, but I couldn't manage it. The pain was too much - a lot of people wrote to me after hearing that song.

Are there any new artists you follow? Do you like the modern, cosmic jazz of Kamasi Washington or Comet is coming?

Mmmm... jazz isn't for me, I find it pretentious, it gives me the shivers! I listen to Doris Day, stuff from the '40s, the big bands, but then I don't like what jazz turned into afterwards. Is Cab Calloway jazz? Yes, but then when it starts sounding like a "French traffic jam", not so much. I like discordancy, but also structure - not just listening to trombones for the sake of playing. Among new artists I like Viagra Boys, they're fun, they bring together a lot of elements - in one track there's a sax solo that connects brilliantly with the song, and the videos are strong, well made, well put together, and I like any band that promotes itself by showing off a belly button!

In the early '80s, Flea of Red Hot Chili Peppers auditioned for PiL. Did you like their music?

I love Flea! Every time I've met him he's been a truly great guy, a fantastic human being. We did the audition in Pasadena, at that time the Chili Peppers were on a sort of break, for various reasons, we played some tracks but then we both agreed that his slap-bass sound didn't fit with us. We have a lot of mutual respect and I'd recommend Flea to anyone. Truly a great guy.

On your records you've had some interesting, unconventional guests, like Steve Vai, Ginger Baker and Ryuichi Sakamoto...

Jeff Beck wasn't available at the time, ahaha... We had producer Bill Laswell, and things for the other PiL members were a bit stressful at that point, they were younger and couldn't keep up with the pace, so Bill called in some replacements, like let's see who's in town, and Steve and Ginger showed up. It was fantastic. One of the Taylors from Duran Duran was also in the studio covering a T. Rex track, and Robert Palmer too. Incredible! It was interesting to hear my songs performed that way. I'm very happy with the result (the record in question is "Albums", ed.).

Thank you, John. See you soon!

You too!

(April 27, 2025)

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