Joe Jackson - An Englishman in New York

A peculiar afternoon. On the other end of the phone is "The Man", the former gangster Spiv, the surly Duke — as he's been nicknamed, in a nod to the title of his latest album and to his proverbial reticence. Yet every cliché about the Joe Jackson persona goes out the window after just a few moments. Because the man on the line turns out to be someone else entirely: relaxed, witty (that part, at least, is true to form) and, even more unexpectedly, in a chatty mood. A composer who, looking back on almost thirty-five years of a wildly eclectic career, can observe the frantic flow of contemporary music, and its new forms of distribution and consumption, with a philosophical eye. Sporting the same "sharp look" as ever. And still taking pleasure in outfoxing "the border police" — the critics who, as Frank Zappa famously put it, can't accept that a musician might move freely from one genre to another. Because if there's one constant running through this atypical artist's varied, unpredictable body of work, it's precisely his vision of music as a "big picture". With no fences of genre or belonging.

Let's start with your latest album, "The Duke". It's not a covers album or a mere tribute to Duke Ellington, but a record that sounds exactly like a new Joe Jackson album. For instance, you dropped the horns, and the arrangements are unmistakably yours.

Yes, that's exactly what I set out to do. You could definitely call this a new Joe Jackson album. I mean, Ellington is one of my great heroes, but the idea for this record grew and changed along the way. There are plenty of versions of Ellington's pieces out there, but nobody had gone far enough yet, and I felt someone needed to. Gradually, I realized that someone could be me. I think part of my qualification for making it is actually the fact that I'm not a jazz musician. I'm a jazz enthusiast, but not a real jazz musician, and that made the job easier.

Indeed, "The Duke" doesn't sound like "a jazz record" at all. I think you used Duke Ellington's work as living material, a tool for exploring the entire universe of your own music.

Yes, exactly. Ellington himself never treated his arrangements as sacred. In fact, he kept changing them constantly, sometimes quite radically. So I think I chose an approach in line with his.

What does Duke Ellington mean to you, and what do you consider his main achievements?

There are so many interesting things about him... I mean, fifteen years of music, and so varied: you could spend your whole life exploring his music. For me he's a huge inspiration. I love his idea that "there are only two kinds of music: good and bad", probably the most famous thing he ever said. He never respected categories or boundaries. He didn't even like his music being called "jazz" — he said it was just "American music".

Yes, he really was a modern composer, and I think you can still hear it in his songs, which never age.

Yes, he was always ahead of everyone else, and that's something I find really interesting too. Above all, he always had an overall vision of what he wanted to create, "the big picture". He also surrounded himself with extraordinary musicians, to whom he always granted a certain freedom, so that they too could share the spotlight. But the secret lies in the structures he built: there was never any conflict between the elements of freedom and improvisation and those of composition, the skeleton of the pieces. That's something that has always fascinated me, and that I've tried to imitate, in some way, as a bandleader, because I think in a similar way. I believe that if I have a talent, it's being able to see the big picture and hold all the various elements together — in that sense, Duke Ellington is a role model for me.

Indeed, as your incredible eclecticism proves. You've always ranged from one genre to another, from pop to soul to jazz, from rock to classical. How have you managed to keep your balance in this constant musical exploration, digging deep into all these genres?

Well, maybe because I didn't know that's exactly what I was doing! (laughs) I think I'm just someone who's always been interested in lots of different kinds of music. When I was sixteen I was into classical, jazz, pop, rhythm'n'blues, reggae. I've always been like that, really. And maybe I'm so versatile because I never had a fixed musical background, I never thought of myself as part of some tradition I had to carry forward, and I never had anyone telling me what music I should listen to or which music was valid and which wasn't. Basically, I just tried to make music without overthinking it, and it's only the result that might come across as eclectic.

That's basically how it's been since your debut: it was labelled "new wave", but it was very far from the paradigms of the genre, and the same goes for your subsequent work too...

Yes, when I try to create something, I only follow my instinct, there's no intellectual plan behind it. It's just the way it comes together that can make it seem like a blend of different styles. If I'd thought about it more, if I'd calculated it more, it probably would never have been as genuine.

You've even composed a few classical records.

Well, no, I wouldn't exactly say "classical"...

OK, let's say close to the classical style.

Yes, in the symphonies I've composed I used the structures of classical symphonies, but the sound is simply that of orchestral music.

Still, that was enough for some critics to cry sacrilege. What do you think of that segment of the critics who can't accept forms of crossover between pop-rock and classical: are they really two such distant and incompatible worlds? (meanwhile, a very loud siren blares in our ears and Joe jokes: "Is someone having a heart attack?!")

There are two different situations. There are plenty of people who deliberately try to combine the two genres and don't manage to do it very well. At the same time, though, there are also plenty of critics who lack the knowledge and imagination to really judge these experiments. So, it's a complicated picture.

I think a lot of critics are really rigid and pedantic, prisoners of fences and prejudices, maybe precisely because they lack a global view, the fabled "big picture".

Right. Frank Zappa came up with a great term for these people, he called them "the border police" (we both laugh heartily...). And Zappa was like Ellington: he had no respect whatsoever for the border police. This kind of thing comes to mind, for instance, when we talk about Gershwin... A couple of months ago I went to see a production of "Porgy And Bess" and it's a huge hit on Broadway, in New York, today as ever. So, audiences still love Gershwin's music now, but back when he was writing it, in the Twenties and Thirties, he was constantly criticized both by jazz purists and by classical purists, who said it was neither one thing nor the other, neither this nor that, and that what he was doing wasn't authentic: they didn't understand that all of it was authentically Gershwin! Even today we listen to Gershwin and it's quite astonishing. The work that so many people criticized, including Duke Ellington himself, is still a smash on Broadway, and nobody cares anymore what the critics thought back in 1929!

Speaking of musicians and disparate approaches, how did you meet Iggy Pop and how did the idea come to you to bring him in on "The Duke"?

I met him on a couple of occasions. The first time we were staying at the same hotel, on tour, and we had a couple of beers together, and had a really interesting conversation. I realized he's actually a really smart guy, people think he's some kind of monster, like a werewolf or something, but he's actually a genuinely nice guy. One day, I was working on the arrangements for the record and it occurred to me that a voice deeper than mine would work better on that track, so I thought of him right away.

Maybe "the deepest"! And I think the duet between the two of you on "It Don't Mean A Thing (If You Ain't Got That Swing)" came out really well.

Yes, I think it's really very funny.

Joe, you've released so many records…

Yes, too many! (laughs)

…is there one you like best, or one you're most attached to?

I don't have a favourite record of mine, I don't even like some more than others. But I can tell you which one is my most underrated album, "Night And Day II". I'm very proud of that album, but it seems like nobody's interested in it…

Well, I liked it, at least!

Oh, thank you! But I really think it's my most underrated record.

I found "Night And Day II" interesting because it shows a rather different New York from the one on the first "Night And Day". How do you think New York has changed from 1982 to today?

Not as much as it's changed since "Night And Day II", actually. If you look at the cover photo, the World Trade Center was still there, the record came out just before 9/11. I think it's changed a lot since then. I think the whole feeling of the city changed after 9/11 and since Bloomberg became mayor. The New York of the early Eighties, when I made "Night And Day", was a tougher, more dangerous city, and dirtier too, but at the same time it was much freer and more fun. It was also cheaper than it is today, so you found a great mix of people there, with a particularly interesting music scene.

Yes, I think it was a dream New York, like in Woody Allen's films. A city far more fascinating than today's.

Yes, I miss that New York a lot, the New York of the Eighties, and I don't much like today's version. It's become mainly a place for the rich, and it's a hyper-controlled city, I think people are less free.

That's probably a consequence of Zero Tolerance. I've read some very critical opinions of yours about this policy, including when it comes to smoking.

Yes, that's one side of it. But after bringing in the smoking bans, Bloomberg went even further, with some truly ridiculous measures, like rules forcing restaurants to show how many calories are in their food. Now he's just banned certain kinds of soda… if you're sixteen, no soda for you! And it goes on like that about everything. That old feeling is gone, it's like a "no fun era". People are so worried about their figure and their health… People didn't used to think about it all the time, they just lived. But it's not a phenomenon limited to New York, it's spreading in the UK too, as well as in many other countries.

When you discovered New York in 1982 as an Englishman, it was love at first sight. I think that very enthusiasm was one of the secrets behind "Night And Day", a masterpiece that turned thirty just a few days ago. Would you agree?

Yes, "Night And Day I" was essentially a story about New York from my point of view, at that time. I was truly excited and full of interest in the city. I still think it's my best record, along with "Night And Day II". The latter offers a slightly more complicated picture, showing many different points of view. Lots of different stories play out across the city, and some of them are happy, others far less so.

Maybe sequels, in general, attract too much prejudice. Or too much expectation…

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do. For some reason nobody understands, people just aren't interested in something, or don't appreciate it, because it's simply not its time. You really can't explain it.

Another album I think is slightly underrated in your discography is “Big World”, one of my all-time favorites.

Oh, really?

Yes, because I particularly love some of the “slow songs” on that record, like “Shangai Sky”, “Fifty Dollar Love Affair”, “We Can’t Live Together”… Do you still like it too?

Yes, I do. I'm particularly proud of how it was recorded, live, at the Roundabout Theatre in New York, in 1986. I'm also very proud of “Rain”, my latest record. I think it probably shows my best songwriting, my best lyrics, and so on.

Your early records, on the other hand, were very close to post-punk and new wave territory. What do you think of those sounds now? Do they belong to a buried past, or do you still love that kind of music? And what do you think of the new generation of nu-new wave bands?

What is "nu new wave"? Where is it?!

Well, let's say it's a dirty word critics invented to describe the generation of bands like Strokes, Interpol, Editors, Franz Ferdinand and many others.

Ah, yes. I know them. I think everything in music resurfaces sooner or later. But I don't think my first two albums were strictly new wave.

Indeed, they were quite far from the genre's conventions.

Yes, to me those records simply sound like "London 1979", the city where I was living. I look back on them with a touch of nostalgia.

So, are you still attached to the sound of "London 1979"?

Yes, because at that time I was living there, I was young, and it was a great period of my life. There was tremendous musical energy back then. Then, in 1982, I left all that behind, and a new phase of my musical journey began, one I think I'm still in today.

What kind of music do you listen to today? Can you tell us about any artists you particularly admire?

Let me see what CDs I've got here… I bought all of these recently. I picked up the new Hives album, the one by Amadou & Mariam, Joe Williams with the Count Basie Orchestra, Dr. John, Galactic… do you know Galactic?

No, I don't know them!

They're a great funk band from New Orleans. I love New Orleans music… Oh, and I also have the Zuco 103 record, they played on two tracks of my album "The Duke". And I've been listening to Tony Allen, the Nigerian percussionist who plays with Fela. I also like afro-beat jazz.

So, you're an omnivore in your musical tastes too.

I think if you really love music, it's natural to be interested in lots of different genres.

Right, you're preaching to the converted with me…

I've always thought that people who stick to just a few specific genres aren't really music lovers, but rather a kind of fetishist!

Let's also talk about how people listen to music today. Your records have always been celebrated for the quality of their production too: what do you think about the fact that today music is mostly listened to on iPods, iPhones, mp3s… Hard times for audiophiles?

Yes, I'm afraid so. Personally, I don't use things like iPods, I just don't like them. I like to hear music out in the air, through speakers. So I'm not really that clued up on the whole thing. I really can't understand how you can walk around the street with music like some kind of jewel stuck in your ear, so that you can't hear anything else around you anymore: I wouldn't feel comfortable in a situation like that.

I like iPods, but I think the real problem is how people actually use them: some people now listen to music as a kind of indistinct background noise, in a very distracted way.

Yes, listening to music like that means it stops being something special. Sometimes I find myself imagining what it was like before records were invented. If you wanted to hear music, you had to go and see someone play live, or learn to play yourself. And I'm sure that when records were invented, a lot of people said: "Oh no… this is going to make music less special and people won't appreciate it anymore". On the other hand, though, millions of people were able to hear music they never would have been able to hear otherwise. So, there are two sides to the coin. And I think we're living through a new version of that same kind of situation.

You've always been an anti-rockstar, even at the height of your biggest successes. I think that's been one of the secrets of your career: you've always kept your focus purely on your music. What do you think of the current pop scene: do you think it's still possible to be successful just by making good music?

Maybe it's just a question of scale. Making and distributing music has become easier than ever, thanks to the internet, but it's hard to build a wide audience.

That's exactly the paradox.

I don't know, things have changed so much since I started out that a lot of the time I really don't know what to think. When people ask me for my opinion on the current state of the music industry, I usually reply with something like: "Oh no, don't ask me that… I don't know what to say!". Everything is changing so fast and nobody knows what to do, not even the record labels know what to do anymore.

You're about to go on tour to promote “The Duke” in the US and Europe. You'll also be coming to Italy.

Yes, I'll be in Italy at the end of October (for three dates: the Town Hall in Udine on the 28th, the Teatro Dal Verme in Milan on the 29th, and Rome's Jazz Festival on the 31st, ed.). The show will focus on the music from “The Duke” and on original songs from my own records. I'll be joined by a six-piece ensemble, the bigger band, including jazz violinist Regina Carter.

Do you hope “The Duke” can help introduce Duke Ellington's music to a wider audience?

I don't have expectations, I don't really believe in them. The Samurai used to say: “Expect nothing, but be ready for everything”!

Okay, good luck, Joe, thanks for the chat, and we hope to see you in Italy.

Okay, bye!

Ride the wave of great music

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