The The - Soul thinking

We caught up exclusively with the celebrated English singer-songwriter Matt Johnson, mastermind of The The, on the occasion of “Ensoulment“, the new album of original material released after a long hiatus of more than twenty-four years, spent away from music and producing records conceived mostly as soundtracks for film. A long conversation ahead of the equally anticipated live return of The The, who will once again be on a world tour, with a packed schedule that includes just one Italian date: Saturday, June 28, 2025, at the Anfiteatro del Vittoriale in Gardone Riviera (Brescia), as part of the Tener-A-Mente festival.

If we leave the soundtracks out of the count, “Ensoulment” arrives twenty-four years after the last album of songs by The The. Why all this time?

Well, it's a very long story. In 2000 I was living in New York and at the time I was trapped between two record labels. I left Sony after eighteen years and joined Universal at a time when, among other things, it was going through a lot of mergers: they swallowed up Polygram and were bought by Seagram. Then they were bought again by Vivendi and it was chaos. There was a lot of confusion, you know. And “Nakedself” got trapped in the middle of it. There was no promotion, no support. I even ended up touring for fourteen months. So I was exhausted.

What did you do after that?

I decided to take some time off. I left America and moved to Europe, to Sweden. And I devoted myself to non-musical projects, for instance working with local communities trying to preserve old buildings. Then various things happened in my private life. At that point, I just wanted to take a break from music, but I certainly didn't mean for it to last twenty-five years. I thought I'd only be stopping for a few years. But as you probably know, as you get older time speeds up, right? And before you know it, ten years have gone by, then twenty…

Right...

Anyway, after about seven or eight years, I became interested in music again, through composing soundtracks. I came back to it slowly. Because I didn't want to repeat the mistake of getting trapped inside a big company like Sony or Universal, where I didn't own my own copyrights and was basically caged in a system where I couldn't really express myself properly the way I wanted to. So I decided to start my own record label, open my own studio, and own my copyrights, and then license the work out. My relationship with Ear Music in Germany works exactly like that. It's definitely much more enjoyable working somewhere where my record label is also the production company. They handle the artwork and we have a partnership agreement. They do the heavy lifting, meaning distribution, and of course they help us with all the promotion. I'm much happier now than I was twenty-five years ago.

“One thing that never seems to change is the cynicism of those in power”. Those are your words. So, in your view, what's the most powerful weapon against the cynicism of the powerful?

I think generally the most powerful weapon remains promoting your own ideals, making sure that the public, in general, wakes up to everything that's going on. But unfortunately it's hard to get a certain amount of space because the media, as you well know, tend to be controlled by the same people who control the politicians. The public is then mostly treated like a herd of cattle or a flock of sheep. In short, people are used to be milked and fleeced through taxes. It's panem et circenses. And as long as that's the case, nothing will ever change. The goal is to keep a distracted, bewildered population docile, and if you're in charge, you can do whatever you want. Also, let's not underestimate the old divide et impera, still practiced today so as to keep different segments of society arguing among themselves and bickering over nothing, while the tiny percentage that truly owns and controls everything keeps on doing as it pleases.

A disaster.

It's the same old story, unfortunately there's nothing new about it. It goes back thousands and thousands of years. This is, after all, human nature. But there are also the positive sides of our being, which lean toward kindness and peace, as well as affection and hope. That too is part of who we are. And I believe most people in the world are, deep down, decent and kind. The hope that everything will change will never die.

How did you react to Francis Ford Coppola's decision to include “Lonely Planet” in “Megalopolis”?

With great joy. Of course, my songs appear in a lot of films. But I'm always happy when it happens again. I love cinema a lot, and Francis Ford Coppola is one of the greatest American directors, so it was a real honor to hear one of my songs in one of his films.

In “Cognitive Dissonance” you sing “la sinistra è la destra, il nero è il bianco”." In Italy, there was a singer-songwriter, Giorgio Gaber, who years ago, in song, asked: “Ma cos’è la destra? Cos’è la sinistra?”. In your view, how dangerous is it to confuse right and left?

Once again, it comes down to divide et impera. Because there's a very subtle weapon used against ordinary people. Let me explain: if someone voices a point of view that goes against the government's narrative, they're immediately smeared as either right-wing or left-wing. But if you think about what left and right actually mean, you have to go back at least twenty years, when Tony Blair was Prime Minister of Britain and leader of the Labour Party, which was apparently left-wing. In America, at the same time, there was George W. Bush of the Republican Party, presumably right-wing. Yet their foreign policies (and not only those) were identical: the illegal war and aggression against Iraq and other countries. Then, a few years on, you have Barack Obama, president and leader of the Democratic Party, presumably on the left of American politics. Meanwhile in Britain along comes David Cameron, Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party, presumably right-wing. And yet they too had foreign policies identical to those of their respective predecessors. So the left-right dichotomy is a bit of a myth.

And what would you call them?

I'd call them by a single name: the extreme centre. Over the last few decades, most of the major political parties on both sides of the Atlantic have been controlled by neo-conservatives and neo-liberals, who I consider the real extremists, because they're in favour of endless war and support the privatisation of public resources, which are routinely handed over to private corporations. Today the real extremists are the ones who claim to be at the centre of everything.

Is the cover of "Soul Mining" really a depiction of one of Fela Kuti's wives?

Yes, yes, it is. She's one of Fela Kuti's many wives. But how many wives did he have? Around forty, right?

Thirty-seven.

There you go.

"Soul Mining" is still considered an absolute masterpiece today, and OndaRock too has celebrated it as a milestone. Do you still feel it as a classic yourself?

It's not up to me to say whether it's a classic or not, but it's certainly stood the test of time, and it sells just as well now as it did forty years ago. What's more, it wasn't influenced by any other album. It came out of what I was thinking and feeling at that moment. I also believe every songwriter's or band's dream is for their record to be listened to decades later by new generations of people. I'm very proud that "Soul Mining" is still so appealing and is still being listened to today by so many young people.

Years ago you said you felt at home when you were in the United States, as the homeland of John Lee Hooker and Johnny Cash. Do you still think that?

Yes, I think that, despite everything, America is still the homeland of Johnny Cash and John Lee Hooker today.

What's it like drinking a coffee on William Blake's grave?

Everyone needs a place to go just to think and reflect. A place you return to often and like to sit alone in to think. I believe it's very important to have one, because we live in an age of incredible distraction, with an absurd density of information that isn't necessarily knowledge. In fact, we're constantly bombarded with information. So it's essential to find the time to sit alone and think and reflect. And that's what I do on William Blake's grave.

What influence has your brother Andrew had on you?

Probably the greatest influence in my life. I mean it. Obviously my mum and dad remain fundamental influences too, huge ones in fact. But apart from that, I'd say my brother Andrew was a very intelligent person. He was perceptive and had a really interesting way of looking at the world. Andrew influenced my tastes, in film, music, literature, art.

You'll finally be touring the world again, and you'll also be playing in Italy.

Italy is my favourite country and I can't wait to come back. In June it'll be the first time I've played a show there in twenty-five years. I'll also be playing in a beautiful venue. I'm really excited about it. I love Italian food, the architecture, I love everything about it. And Rome is probably my favourite city, along with New York. I absolutely adore you Italians. You're so expressive. I have some wonderful friends in Italy. And then there's the weather, the climate. Yours is simply a wonderful country.

So when will the next album come out instead?

I've just finished composing a new soundtrack for my brother, Gerard, who's a filmmaker and recently directed a new film called "Odyssey", which had its world premiere at South by Southwest. It's getting great reviews too. I'm also writing a book. And we've got a new single coming out in May, plus a summer tour. Luckily there's always plenty to do.

* Thanks to Mario Colella and Fabio Mingarelli for their collaboration. And to Gianfranco Marmoro for organising the interview.

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