Lorenzo Barbagli

A musicologist by training and a blogger by vocation, Lorenzo Barbagli is an invaluable point of reference for anyone in Italy who loves patrolling the new frontiers of progressive rock. As long as you're willing to have your own convictions about the genre challenged, his blog Altprogcore, now more than a decade old, is a goldmine that never stops surprising and uncovering new veins: progressive pop, djent, hyperkinetic post-rock, fusion deconstructivism – countless hybrid creatures can be encountered on its constantly updated pages, often at the risk of losing yourself along the way.

The ground on which Barbagli is the ultimate authority, however, is alternative prog, which blossomed at the turn of the new millennium thanks to the centrifugal moves of At The Drive-In/Mars Volta and other bands rooted in post-hardcore, emocore, and math-rock. Having proliferated in the following years by hybridizing at times with metalcore, at times with shoegaze swirls, at times with the immediacy of pop-rock, it has given rise – above all in the United States – to scenes rich in creative, well-regarded bands, yet rarely able to gather fans in Europe – and even more rarely recognized as the many faces of a single phenomenon, a new prog explosion arising from horizons completely different from the continuity that, through its ups and downs, traces back to the early Seventies.

In 2015, Barbagli gathered his overviews into what is probably the only magnum opus devoted to the field, a self-produced text distributed on the Lulu.com platform, aptly titled “Altprogcore” (subtitle: “Dal post hardcore al post prog”). Revised and expanded in 2018, it has also been available in ebook format for a few weeks now. Taking the opportunity of this new edition, we meet the author for an email interview, an introduction to the themes explored in depth across the book's more than three hundred richly detailed pages. Accompanying the article is a fitting themed playlist, meant as a starting point for exploring the genre and reading the essay – highly recommended.

Author: Lorenzo Barbagli

Title: Altprogcore – Dal post hardcore al post prog

Publisher: Lulu.com

Pages: 384

Price: €7.70 (ebook)

The neo progressive scene of the last couple of decades is full of names with a considerable following: Steven Wilson, Wobbler, Pineapple Thief, Big Big Train, Riverside, and on a more cult level the Italian Yugen… And yet you've written a book to show how these represent only one part of the contemporary progressive galaxy – and not necessarily the most “progressive” part. In fact, in the introduction you write: “The formula has become so overused over time that by now you already know what to expect from any newly formed prog band […]. That's why the only real jolt to the genre has necessarily come from musicians whose roots lie in punk-rock and hardcore”. But how can that be? In punk/hardcore circles, wasn't “progressive” a dirty word?

The sentence you quote might come across as a bit harsh, since it seems to generalize, but placed in the context of a perspective aimed at adding to, experimenting with and pushing a genre toward new stimuli, it all makes sense. Let me explain: I'm not saying that all the neo-prog bands that have emerged over the last twenty years amount to a sterile exercise in style (I myself enjoy Wobbler, Big Big Train and some Steven Wilson, on and off), but in this span of time we've reached such a saturation point of bands using sonic tropes typical of “classic prog” that I struggle to find anything new in them. And here we get right to the heart of the matter: the eternal debate over what we really want “progressive rock” to mean. Is it an attitude or a paradigm? Obviously for me it's the former, and in that sense, to answer your question, it's all a matter of prejudice. Setting it aside and keeping an open mind is essential; that's why I believe prog hardcore has thrived mainly among younger generations. But there's another factor too. At the heart of the whole prog vs. hardcore/punk antagonism, and their fusion into a new progressive hybrid, lies the geographical place where it all developed, namely the United States. I think the historic rivalry between punk and prog is a legacy that's mostly European: we tend to be more rigid and sectarian on this front, and “prog hardcore” proves it, since it never took root in Europe and almost certainly couldn't have been born there. As I explain in the book, in the United States, 70s prog arrived somewhat late and never had a big enough impact to acquire that aura of reverential untouchability, nor, conversely, to trigger a backlash against it the way punk did. In the United States there's a much more open and free-spirited view on this front, and bands don't have many qualms about using stylistic contrasts so as not to stay stuck on the same coordinates forever

Besides highlighting in bold an essential title like the one you mentioned, “De-Loused In The Comatorium”, the ten I'd cite are (strictly in alphabetical order):

Agent Fresco – A Long Time Listening (2010)

Coheed and Cambria – In Keeping Secrets Of Silent Earth: 3 (2003)

Damiera – M(US)ic (2007)

Dredg – El Cielo (2002)

Kaddisfly – Set Sail The Prairie (2007)

Oceansize – Frames (2007)

Thank You Scientist – Maps Of Non-Existent Places (2012)

The Dear Hunter – Act II: The Meaning Of, And All Things Regarding Ms. Leading (2007)

The Fall Of Troy – Phantom On The Horizon (2008)

The Felix Culpa – Sever Your Roots (2010)

What common traits do you see between historic progressive rock and this “new” progressive music born out of alternative rock and post-hardcore? And what are the main differences in terms of attitude?

The common traits are the ones that, regardless of how one interprets the meaning of progressive rock, I think can be considered universal and fundamental: executional and technical complexity, an unorthodox development of song structure (which, I want to stress, can be achieved in both long and short pieces), and a pronounced flair for blending styles and genres. As for the difference, what really stands out is a shift in attitude, since this “new” progressive music speaks to the more visceral, instinctive side of rock, and in that sense it's closer to punk and hardcore, while still keeping a high technical level. That said, it shouldn't be lumped together with the prog metal cauldron – here we're in a different territory altogether. Another difference stemming directly from this is that this music no longer puts keyboards front and center the way “classic” prog did; in fact it very often does away with them entirely, or uses them in a purely decorative way. Let's say the guitar takes on the starring role here.

One reason can be traced partly to what I mentioned in my first answer: the audience devoted to progressive rock is very attached to a certain type of sound and, paradoxically, doesn't like change. Consider that the most hardline fans don't even acknowledge progressive metal as part of the scene. On top of that there are also those who might be more open-minded but still aren't inclined to embrace such aggressive sounds. The fact that prog hardcore never won converts in Europe is symptomatic of how audiences over here perceive novelty differently from Americans, and that's where a potential chunk of the audience slips away. To give an example, as far back as fifteen years ago, in reviews on American alternative websites, I noticed the term “prog” being used in contexts that would have scandalized an orthodox listener. That shows just how differently the concept of “prog” is perceived. Across the Atlantic you can talk about a genuine scene that was born and thrived among young alternative fans in the early 2000s, but unfortunately it never managed to expand beyond that.

The first ones worth mentioning, I think, are Biffy Clyro, who over time have become catchier and less cerebral compared to their two classics, “The Vertigo Of Bliss” and “Infinity Land”. Then I'd add Mew, Everything Everything and Coheed & Cambria, who followed a similar arc toward accessibility as Biffy Clyro, although they appealed more to an audience drawn to hard rock or heavy metal. Finally, I'd mention the case of Dance Gavin Dance, a band that spawned a subgenre called “swancore” and that has a truly devoted hardcore fanbase. This too is an entirely American phenomenon: thanks to this popularity, since 2019 they've managed to organize and draw enough of a crowd to launch their own annual festival (Swanfest) together with other labelmates. Generally speaking, then, I'd say the key to reaching more streams (and therefore a wider audience) lies in not pushing the experimentation factor too hard.

Several passages in your biographies highlight the links between "alternative prog" bands and specific strands of cinema and literature. "Ergodic literature" novels like Danielewski's "House Of Leaves" and "mindfuck"-oriented films like those of Aronofsky or Gondry's "The Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind" seem to have been decisive inspirations for the scene, or scenes. Would you mention other names too? What stylistic parallels might correspond to this fascination?

Well, the lyrics and subject matter are another element in common with prog rock, namely the pursuit of intellectual storytelling that, given the context, steers clear of lyrics about social anger or teenage angst, and in some cases the concept-album model has come back into use. Rather than more films or books, I could add other media that have become associated with these artists. For instance, both Claudio Sanchez of Coheed and Cambria and Casey Crescenzo of The Dear Hunter have authored full-blown sagas in musical form, whose narratives unfolded across multiple albums and were later adapted into graphic novels. Dredg drew on Salvador Dalí's painting "Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bumblebee Around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening" and on sleep paralysis for "El Cielo", and on an essay by Salman Rushdie for "The Pariah, The Parrot, The Delusion". Among more recent bands I'd mention Adjy, whose recent "The Idyll Opus (I-VI)" is a hugely inspired concept album (which will have two parts), from which a book was drawn collecting the lyrics along with accompanying notes, rich in mythological, numerical and literary references. The stylistic parallels that emerge are similar to those of prog rock, not so much on an aesthetic level as on a literary one: the grandeur and complexity of the music mirror the intent to tell something profound.

Your blog Altprogcore has been a reference point for Italian readers interested in the scenes you cover for fourteen years now. Yours is a deliberately "niche" point of view, yet one that pays close attention to scenes that very few cover with such care. Was the choice to focus on this kind of perspective a gradual one, or clear in your intentions from the start?

The idea was clear right away; if anything, it was the decision to start a blog that took more thought. Even before launching Altprogcore, I was already noticing this turn the genre was taking, and I'd bring up a few names in the reviews I wrote for the fanzine "Wonderous Stories", but those were just the first signs. There was a period, I think around the summer of 2007, when a huge amount of listening made me realize that a clearly defined scene now existed, one I could speak about with real knowledge. I just needed to find a means of sharing it. Back then, the reviews, news and updates I came across mostly came from American websites, and I'd noticed that in Italy (but also in Europe) these bands were, at best, mentioned in passing, or completely ignored. That was the decisive push. I told myself: "Somebody has to talk about this," also nursing the hope of broadening the horizons of the average prog listener, thinking I was offering something entirely new. Alas, after fourteen years, I have to admit I don't know whether that last goal has had the hoped-for effect, but I do think I've gained readers from outside the prog world, at least.

For your book, as for others you've written, you chose the path of self-publishing. What advantages does that give you?

The choice was almost forced, I'd say. Indeed, the elusiveness of the genre and of the names covered, not exactly the most popular, was the deciding factor that pushed me toward self-publishing. The advantages of this approach are that, since you're not signing any contract, you have control over everything, from copyright to earnings, all the way to revising or adding material whenever you want. What's more, even without major promotion behind you, the books still reach the main online distribution channels like Amazon, at no extra cost: you just have to buy a proof copy.

Your background includes musicological training. Yet your approach to music writing seems tied first and foremost to music criticism in the commonly understood sense. What extra tools do you think come from your studies, and how do you think they show up?

If you look at musicology textbooks or essays, you'll notice they're filled out with examples and excerpts of music theory. I think that if I'd applied that approach, I would have risked narrowing my readership even further. Joking aside, I've always preferred the "popular music" critic's method over the academic one. That said, I think studying gave me greater awareness in applying objective criticism, that is, not letting myself be swayed by personal taste, and recognizing the value of a work within its context, even when it doesn't fit my own aesthetic standards. To give the most obvious example that comes to mind, which also applies well to this topic: between Yes and King Crimson, I've always far preferred the former, yet it's undeniable that Robert Fripp's band passed down the most stimulating elements that still echo through the kind of prog I listen to today. Another thing studying gave me is attention to the various stylistic nuances or cross-contaminations a genre can take on. Artists are very often uncomfortable with being pigeonholed into a given genre or subgenre. For me, on the contrary, it's important and fascinating to know and be able to trace the various forms a style can take, including with reference to the cultural or social context in which it developed. It's also a useful, immediate way of helping the reader instantly grasp the area under discussion.

What future paths do you envision for progressive music in the coming years, and in which records or artists do you think you can already sense the seeds of it?

I'll admit that for a while now I've started noticing a certain stagnation even within this kind of prog, so it's not easy to imagine a future for progressive music. My hope is that sooner or later another explosive record will come along and shake things up the way "De-Loused In The Comatorium" did. That seems difficult, though, because I believe that in the future the boundaries and limits between genres will become ever more blurred, and it's increasingly hard to be surprised by something new. In my book I explain how prog hardcore developed through the fusion of three main genres: post-hardcore, math-rock and emocore. Initially, their influence led to the creation of well-defined stylistic traits in this new subgenre. Over time, those distinctive traits increasingly blended with other styles, eventually coming to encompass a very wide range of artists. The level of cross-genre mixing has reached such a point of emancipation that today you can listen to an emo album and find instrumental developments worthy of prog inside it, or discover how math-rock blends so seamlessly with fusion that you're left unsure which of the two is the dominant influence. One band in which I spot these traits, and which I'd point to as an example for the genre's future, is Monobody. Their three studio albums may not go down as masterpieces, but their way of blending math-rock, jazz, prog rock and Canterbury Sound so naturally is so effective that the barriers and boundaries between stylistic traits simply vanish. I think their ideas, if properly developed, could really make a difference.

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