Thin White Rope - The pioneers of desert rock

After so many years, people are talking about Thin White Rope again. Roger Kunkel, guitarist of the legendary Californian band, has released a series of solo guitar works, and apparently has more planned. We took the opportunity to have a chat with him. We started from the beginning of his musical career with Thin White Rope, discussed his time in Acme Rocket Quartet, and finally got to his current projects. Warm and attentive, Roger spoke openly to us about his artistic experiences, offering an interesting behind-the-scenes perspective on the evolution of American underground rock between the late Eighties and the early Nineties. Enjoy the read.

I fell in love with the guitar at a young age. My father was a hi-fi enthusiast and listened to Chet Atkins and other country musicians on his reel-to-reel recorder. I started pestering him for a guitar from the age of four. He gave me a classical guitar and I began taking lessons at the age of six. The sound of the guitar was my passion, not any particular band, until my older brother started buying rock records. That's when I began listening to pop and rock on the radio. "Abbey Road" and the compilation "Hey Jude" were two of the first rock records to have a huge impact on me. They blew me away. Then he brought home albums by Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple, and for years I was fixated on Jimmy Page and Ritchie Blackmore. In high school I had a band that played a lot of that stuff. Then I discovered Iggy Pop, the Clash and the Pistols, and my musical sensibility changed.

Let's talk about the birth of Thin White Rope: how did you meet Guy Kyser?

I started attending college in Sacramento, California. I wasn't sure I wanted to go, but it was a good way to move to a bigger city and join a band. One way to meet other musicians to play with was to put up a notice in local music stores. I put a card in a store mentioning the bands I liked. That led to a phone call with Kevin Staydohar, who was already in touch with Jozef Becker, who had played with Guy in his pre-Thin White Rope band, The Lazy Boys. That became the original lineup of Thin White Rope. We started rehearsing there in Sacramento and played our first shows there, but the scene in Davis (a nearby college town) was more exciting thanks to the college radio station and the underground music scene.

One of the members of The Lazy Boys was Scott Miller. After a while, Miller left The Lazy Boys to form Game Theory. What were the connections between Thin White Rope and the bands of the so-called Paisley Underground? In that early period and afterward.

Scott was a childhood friend of Joe Becker (Alternate Learning, Game Theory, The Graves Brothers Deluxe, The Loud Family, The Sippy Cups, Thin White Rope, ed.). Joe's sister played keyboards in Game Theory. Steve Wynn and Kendra Smith had a band in town before moving back to Los Angeles. True West were also based in Davis. Scott helped us record our first demo. Russ Tolman (guitarist of True West, ed.) also lent a hand. Those tapes drew interest from several labels. Our rhythm section left and joined True West to go on tour. So there was a lot of cross-pollination between the bands mentioned. When we emerged, we were perceived as a neo-psychedelic band, largely because of these connections. Once our country and blues sides started finding an audience, we got lumped into the alternative-country/cow-punk genre, then we were labeled "desert rock". Desert rock was a reasonable classification, considering that Guy grew up in the Mojave Desert and his lyrics explored that theme. Even so, we were a bit puzzled by the labels people stuck on us. Our third album was deliberately ocean-themed, specifically to push back against the "desert rock" tag.

Speaking of desert rock, with "Exploring The Axis" you defined its coordinates. Were you aware, at the time, of how original your music was?

We knew we were different from most bands on the scene, but our influences and methods weren't anything new. Drums, bass and two guitars with lots of distortion and soloing. That album, though, really brought Guy's songwriting into sharp focus. His lyrics and his way of singing were front and center. His voice was unsettling, bigger and deeper than anything we'd heard before. It quickly became clear that Guy was an exceptional writer.

So, what can you tell me about Guy? An anecdote, a story, a side of his character... He still radiates a legendary aura today.

Guy is a quiet, introverted person, sometimes socially awkward, kind and compassionate, with an extraordinary spirit and an equally extraordinary intellect. But barely in our twenties, fueled by youth, alcohol and a bit of rock'n'roll ambition, we could show different sides of our character. Having to be the frontman of the band was hard for Guy, to the point that he had to prepare for shows with generous doses of cigarettes, coffee and alcohol. Over time that wore him down, and it was, at least in part, the reason that eventually led him to leave the band. We drank all night and traveled. If there was something worth climbing, like one of those towers holding up water tanks, a ship's mast, or the Colosseum in Rome, we'd climb it. He was a voracious reader and had an impressive knowledge of natural history, art and literature. I was a bit intimidated, honestly. For the most part we got along, and he's still a dear friend, even though I don't see him often these days. He took up the banjo and ten years ago formed a bluegrass band. I don't think he's playing these days.

That kind of interplay between your guitar and Guy's has always fascinated me. In practice, there was no difference between rhythm and lead. How did you decide which parts each of you would play? Did jazz and improvisation have anything to do with it?

From the start we both wanted to play lead guitar parts. Television were a big influence. So we started considering the idea of dropping the classic rhythm/lead structure in favor of a more orchestrated approach to combining the individual parts. That came out especially during the recording of "Moonhead". "Wet Heart" and "Take it Home" are probably two good examples of that. We put a fair amount of work into that kind of arranging. We also separated our guitar sounds to create a wider sonic landscape. For instance, with one guitar plugged into a Marshall amp and the other into a Fender amp. Combined with controlled feedback, things could really take off. As for improvisation, some parts were suited to being improvised, especially some crazy outros. Otherwise, most of our music was rehearsed and arranged, even if it subtly evolved over the course of many live shows. Jazz voicings and chords were rare, and mostly unintentional, I'd say.

Let's get to "Moonhead". What memories do you have of that record? "Moonhead" (the song), "Wet Heart", "If Those Tears"... It seems to me an even darker and more apocalyptic album than "Exploring The Axis"...

I usually name "Moonhead" as my favorite Thin White Rope record, sometimes "Sack Full Of Silver". I wasn't satisfied with "Exploring The Axis", partly because of the overly heavy production, partly because of my own inexperience when it came to studio work. I felt like I couldn't get the guitar tones I wanted; things felt contrived. I had the sense that "Exploring The Axis" failed to capture our live sound. Years later I started liking it more. "Moonhead" was produced by a great sound engineer, who helped us be ourselves, capturing the band's sound in a rawer, more direct way. We were also improving technically and musically. I was satisfied with my own playing and with the sound I'd gotten out of my guitar. Those were two truly rewarding weeks of work. Guy's songs on that record are fantastic. I'd say it's the definitive Rope album. "Moonhead" was an old Guy song. I contributed the intro, and for that I was credited as co-writer, though I believe it was an adaptation of an earlier version. Either way, it's a very dark song! "Crawl Piss Freeze" is a scream of rage for a young friend dying of cancer.

"Moonhead" was very well received by critics; at that point, did you expect to sell more? Was it frustrating not to achieve major mainstream success and become rock stars?

We knew our music would never become mainstream. We'd seen enough of the industry to know it would be absurdly unfair to artists. I guess we hoped to reach the top of the college radio and alternative radio charts, maybe like Pixies, Sonic Youth, etc. When "Moonhead" came out, we were surprised by the radio play we got and by the audiences we drew in Italy. By the time Nirvana broke through, we were already planning our exit. Italy was the first European country to book us for shows, and we had a fantastic time there. I'll always be grateful for the tours and experiences we had. I was pretty disappointed when Guy announced he was leaving the band. It changed my life. I talked him into doing one final tour. I'm glad we got a live album out of it.

Indeed, in Italy Thin White Rope were, and still are, a much-loved band. What do you remember about the shows in our country? In general, it seems fair to say that Thin White Rope were more appreciated in Europe than in the United States...

Our first visit to Italy lasted a week. Paolo Bedini from AZ Music in Rome contacted Frontier to invite us. If I remember correctly, most of the shows took place outdoors, in public parks. The first was in Bari. There were a lot of people involved. The highlight was playing a big charity show in Reggio Emilia, where we ended up on the bill with Billy Bragg, X and 10,000 Maniacs. Paolo didn't speak much English, so we had no idea we were about to play such a big show. To our surprise, the audience was familiar with our songs, and we got a great response. Paolo wanted to expand his business into Northern Europe and booked a couple of tours that took us to Berlin and Scandinavia. So Italy was our springboard for European tours. It took a bit of activity on the road before we made our way into the real club circuit. In 1988 Paolo organized our unlikely and rather surreal tour of the Soviet Union, which is a long story. For about six years we came to Italy twice a year. We played a lot of small towns and it was always fun. I loved doing it.

Going back to the records, what can you tell me about "In The Spanish Cave" and "Sack Full Of Silver"? "Sack Full Of Silver" seems to me your most alien and hostile record. Guy's lyrics also seem very harsh and direct to me...

"In The Spanish Cave" was made in the same studio and with the same producer as "Moonhead", but our bassist, John von Feldt, was new. Steve Tesluk had left the band shortly after "Moonhead" was recorded. Steve was originally a guitarist, and he picked up the bass specifically to join the band. That's why his playing was so melodic. His bass lines were remarkable. He provided a huge contribution to our sound, and I was shocked when he decided to leave, given the success of "Moonhead". He'd started a new relationship and moved to Los Angeles. John was a more traditional rock bassist, with a very solid groove. Guy wanted to lighten up his writing, and some of his humor crept into the songs. "Mr Limpet", for instance, is a tribute to an old Don Knotts film, and "Elsie Crashed The Party" is the story of a cow carcass being brought home to attend a party. Heaviness is still the trademark of many tracks, of course, especially "It's Okay", which became a staple of our live sets. "Astronomy" remains one of my favorite Guy lyrics. "Red Sun" is the closest thing to a hit we ever came up with.

"Sack Full Of Silver" was a big change, with more adventurous songwriting and with Matt Abourezk on drums. Guy kept developing his landscape with a dreamlike, geographic/geometric lyrical style. "The Triangle Song" and "On The Floe" are great examples of his style. The record was recorded by Tom Mallon, the drummer for American Music Club. Back then he ran a studio in San Francisco. Tom recorded a lot of San Francisco bands in the Eighties, on top of the AMC records. "Sack Full Of Silver" has a wide dynamic and stylistic range. We'd matured, I'd say. It was also our major-label debut. Frontier had signed a licensing deal with RCA. It didn't do us much good, though. It got us a review in Rolling Stone (and proved they were ignoring indie bands), but otherwise very little promotion. In parts of Europe it actually hurt us more than it helped, because Rough Trade stopped distributing us.

"The Ruby Sea" is still a great record, but by the early Nineties the landscape had changed, and maybe you weren't perceived as a "new thing" anymore. What led to the band breaking up?

We recorded "The Ruby Sea" in Los Angeles, in a really nice studio, produced by Bill Noland (Wall of Voodoo, Human Hands). We were approached by Butch Vig to produce the record. We liked his work, but he wanted us to go to Madison. In the end we decided not to go. Meanwhile Nirvana signed to Geffen and, with a much bigger budget than ours, hired Butch and brought him out to Los Angeles. They recorded "Nevermind" at the same time we were recording "The Ruby Sea". We were friends with their manager, John Silva. John came up with the idea of a collaboration. We were supposed to guest on a Nirvana record and vice versa, but neither band was particularly enthusiastic about it. We all went to a Butthole Surfers show together, where Kurt and I got into a drunken wrestling match. Anyway. In the meantime, Stoo Odom had replaced John von Feldt on bass. The sessions were fun. I liked the result, although the record felt a bit too polished and overproduced to me.

The breakup of Thin White Rope was caused by Guy leaving. He was going through relationship turmoil during the recording of "The Ruby Sea". I think the combination of all that - the discomfort of being the frontman of a rock band, the lack of commercial success in the United States, the lineup changes and the grind of touring - brought him face to face with his own unhappiness and made him realize he needed a major change in his life. We didn't make much money. Touring in the United States was a break-even business. The European tours were bigger and better, but after expenses they didn't amount to much either. I think the girl selling t-shirts at the shows made more money than I did during the "The Ruby Sea" tour.

"The One That Got Away" is one of the best live albums in rock history. A few years later you put together the Acme Rocket Quartet, a kind of crossover between Ennio Morricone, your father Chet Atkins's idol, jazz and surf music...

I think the European tour of summer 1992 was already booked when Guy called me to say he was leaving the band. I gave him some time, and then I managed to convince him that one last, short tour would be a good way to go out. We played a few festivals, a couple of dates in Italy, and then Ghent. Lisa Fancher from Frontier arranged the recording, bringing in a multitrack rig and a sound engineer. We were determined to deliver an epic show. Matt Abourezk is also a photographer and brought photo equipment, which his wife used. They shot footage during the tour, which became the "The Axis Calls Final Tour" video (a dumb title, I thought). I'm grateful to everyone. I love that recording. It really captured the essence of Thin White Rope. I hope Frontier puts out a double vinyl at some point.

Thanks for asking about Acme Rocket Quartet! It was a project that came a bit as a reaction to Thin White Rope. I sold all my solid body guitars and bought an old hollow body. I was determined to do something in a different style and, more importantly, to write most of the material myself. I also decided to record everything on my own. I felt like I was in Guy Kyser's shadow and I wanted to make sure I explored my own creativity without restrictions.

With Acme Rocket Quartet we had a great time, recording in a creative way and playing around Northern California. We didn't put much effort into getting a record deal or touring, so we stayed under the radar, but I have no regrets about that. The three albums we made are on Bandcamp and at some point I'll try to promote them more. Like I said, Guy and I formed a bluegrass band, played a few shows and recorded a demo. Some tracks are up on my Soundcloud. He played banjo and I played mandolin. It ended when the guitarist moved to upstate New York. I have a few projects going on. For instance, an album I recently recorded with Stoo Odom. We're planning to press it on vinyl, which should come out by the fall. Maybe we'll tour Europe after that. I'm also starting to play some solo guitar shows and I think I'll be doing a lot more of those soon. Here you can find my stuff.

I really like the Acme Rocket Quartet albums, especially the first one. I also like your solo guitar work, especially the record "Guitar Solo". I feel like I can hear echoes of Sandy Bull and Leo Kottke...

I've always been an instrument-and-sound artist, rather than a lyrics-and-songs one. I guess that's obvious. My main influences are Chet Atkins, Les Paul, Django Reinhardt, Wes Montgomery, Marc Ribot and Bill Frisell. Performing solo on guitar has always been an ambition of mine, but for the most part I avoided it for lack of time, focus and the necessary confidence. Recording "Guitar Solo" was my attempt to confront those demons. It went well, but it's just a starting point. It's very "composed" material. I'd like to achieve a blend of composition and improvisation, and I'd like to be able to perform both solo and in improvised collaborations. Last year, while visiting Stoo Odom in New Orleans, I played an improvisation-based show with the great percussionist Tatsuya Nakatani, and it was really inspiring. Sacramento has a very active impro/free jazz/outsider music scene, with some wonderful musicians involved. On that note, check out Cloud Seeder, a group made up of Steve Edberg, Dave Thompson and me - basically the whole Acme Rocket Quartet lineup. There we improvise using sound toys and regular instruments.

Lastly, I know a Thin White Rope reunion is next to impossible but... can you tell us whether there's any unreleased material still out there?

I can't think of any unreleased Thin White Rope material, apart from the early demos and live bootlegs. I put our first demo, recorded by Scott Miller, up on my SoundCloud. It includes a song called "Macy's Window". I think I have copies of some other demos of ours, I'll try to track them down soon.

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