Pop Group - Mark Stewart - Confessions of a Fire Thief

Last November 1st, forty years after its original release, Mute reissued "Y", the epoch-making debut album by Pop Group, which at the time caused a great stir among rock fans with its explosive blend of social protest, post-punk, dub, funk, reggae, free jazz and avant-garde techniques. To celebrate the new life of one of the great masterpieces of new wave and of rock as a whole, we couldn't pass up the chance to put a few questions to Mark Stewart, who remains Pop Group's leader and fiery voice.

I'm well, thanks so much. I've been very busy overseeing the artwork and hidden musical treasures of this reissue of "Y", which is biblically epic, real Cecil B. DeMille stuff.

How did you first get into music when you were young, and when did you realize it could become your reason for living?

I still haven't figured that out. Before punk came along, we thought music was something very far removed from us, then we stumbled across things like Paul Simonon of the Clash with the stickers on his bass and the whole three-chord story, and that's how an entire generation of kids gave up a fun future at the local weapons factory for the perverse pleasures of post-punk.

There have been long stretches in your life when you weren't making music. What do you usually do when you're not making music?

My life is quite unusual, and I've spent periods without music on active volcanoes right in the middle of the Atlantic, lending a hand behind the scenes on projects by some friends (Tricky, On-U), cooking up provocations with an art collective I'm part of called Nuovo Banalismo, and scribbling down theory and practice. More recently, I contributed some graphic work to an exhibition on the Peterloo massacre in Manchester, got involved in a collaboration in Italy with a collective called Obselete Capitalism; then I had the chance to help put together a magazine/book with the Nuovo Banalismo movement and the artist Rupert Goldsworthy. And, of course, I've also cracked some terrible jokes.

In many of your songs, including some on “Y” itself, you've used vocal distortion. Is it a simple “effect”, or does it carry a deeper artistic and/or philosophical meaning?

The idea is to embody a form of human resistance against the distorted, manipulated matrix (or against what people call “reality”). I think the power of music hits harder and cuts deeper when the voice is used in a way that recalls what Jimi Hendrix did with his guitar.

The music on “Y” is clearly influenced by the idea of juxtaposition and/or collage of different sound sources (I'm thinking, for instance, of “We Are Time”). But this idea, in one way or another, would keep resurfacing in your solo work and in some of your collaborations too. Is that a deliberate choice?

Yes and no. A very important passage in our Nuovo Banalismo manifesto says that “technique is a refuge for the insecure”. I find that using chance procedures is a vital process. An idea I was working on today is that of the “happy accident”, and throughout my career and artistic practice I've always stayed open to the unexpected: it's important to keep your brain open.

“Y” definitely had a very strong political background. How important was politics to you back then, and how important is it now?

Personally, I can't separate magic and deep-water immersions from what people call politics. An interesting theory I came across recently is that of the contemporary American economist Joseph Stiglitz. In his book “The Price of Inequality”, he essentially says that in every action you take, from the peanuts you buy to the hierarchies you accept, there's always a butterfly effect. Every action has a reaction.

The Pop Group never had any interest in playing punk. No fast, short songs, but a mix of funk, free jazz, chaos and dub. What pushed you against the current?

We thought punk meant challenging everything: no race, no gender, no social class. Challenging politics, every form of music, and the very essence of what they call reality. The One Principle and all that.

You can pick up fragments of dub and roots reggae (or at least scattered influences) in the sound mix of “Y”. Just a nostalgic tribute to a legendary civilization, or also a political stance?

I thought dub, at that time, was just as experimental as any of the so-called post-punk bands. Working with the notorious dubmeister Dennis Bovell was a vital part of our basic philosophy. As far as I'm concerned, the aching songs of roots reggae keep resurfacing in my consciousness, on an emotional, political and mystical level. As Justin Hinds of the Dominoes sang: “Sinners, where you gonna run to, where you gonna hide, our day is coming”.

At the end of the Seventies, who were your biggest musical heroes

This Heat, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Archie Pool of the Radical Alliance of Black Poets and Players, Lucio Battisti, Mutabaruka, and the very earliest Television.

Are we still “all prostitutes”, as the title of your second single, released in 1979 (“We Are All Prostitutes”), put it?

Yes, especially today, but tomorrow is closed.

You've often repeated that "there are no spectators," which is also the title ("There Are No Spectators") of one of the songs from the Pop Group's second album, "For How Much Longer Do We Tolerate Mass Murder?". What exactly do you mean by that?

What I meant is that it's important to hurl effect-laden balls into the future, pick them up wherever they land, and build your imagination out of them. You have to avoid becoming a "voyeur of Armageddon."

What pushed the Pop Group to get back on track in 2010?

Matt Groening asked us to reform to play at All Tomorrow's Parties alongside the Stooges. As soon as we got back together, a tornado of madness broke out in the room, and it's proved unstoppable ever since. Although, I do wish I could reform my brain.

Today, when you happen to listen back to "Y", what do you feel? Are you fully satisfied with that record, or is there something you'd have liked to do differently?

The craziest thing is that every time I listen to it, I feel something different, I feel something new, it's like an index of possibilities. I can't wait to bring it back out on the road. Right now, I'm playing the role of a circus master trying to tame the wild characters involved, coaxing them onto the back of a truck to bring that great carnival of monsters that is "Y" to your neck of the woods. As for how satisfied I am and whether I'd change anything... faith is the room of doubt.

Which writers, philosophers and artists in general underpin your worldview?

Frantz Fanon, Antonin Artaud, Thor Heyerdahl, Rupert Sheldrake, Rumi, Adam Parfrey (the publisher behind Feral House books), Vandana Shiva, Bernie Rhodes, Robert Goulet, Erwin Piscator, Jerzy Grotowski, and many figures linked to symbolist theatre.

It's incredible, especially in the UK. There's a lot of great music out there: from the London crowd around Black Midi to the bass music of the Bristol scene, with artists of the calibre of Giant Swan and Young Echo.

For how much longer must we tolerate mass murder? In other words: "For How Much Longer Do We Tolerate Mass Murder?"

There are unconventional cures for everyday ailments.

Do you still feel like a "fire thief"?

Hands of light.

Have you ever sold out your dreams?

The obstacle is the way.

Your take on Brexit…

It would take a twenty-page treatise.

Ten records you'd bring to that famous "desert island"…

Albert Ayler – “Ghosts”

This track is a totem, a badge of honour for outsiders the world over. This record is my friend for life.

The Spades – “We Sell Soul”

One of the first works conceived by Roky Erickson, a true visionary.

Pablo Gad – “Hard Times”

One I come back to often, and one that always makes me think of Bristol at the end of the '70s. My anthem for the condemned youth.

Vivian Jackson & The Ralph Brothers – “Conquering Lion”

One of the many revelatory prophecies of Vivian Jackson aka Yabby You. I need music like this to live.

Jobriath – “Morning Star Ship”

An invitation to return to my teenage self. A song that defines me in many ways.

Woody Guthrie – “This Land Is Your Land”

I stumbled onto Guthrie thanks to a recommendation from Joe Strummer, both classic protest singers. Also highly recommended is Phil Ochs.

Mark Winter – “Go Away Little Girl”

There's a lost history of English rock & roll that I've been collecting. My favourites are Eden Kane and Johnny Gentle, but this tune, which is a bit more than just a mysterious ballad, always gives me chills.

Lee ‘Scratch’ Perry – “Here Come The Warm Dreads” (with Brian Eno)

Adrian Sherwood and the whole On-U Sound crew are kind of like my family. Among their own records and the ones they've worked on, my favourites are Prince Far I's “Cry Tuff Dub Encounters” and “Mankind' by Jalal Mansur Nuriddin (of The Last Poets)”, but above all “Revenge of the Mozabites” by Suns of Arqa. “Heavy Rain” shows they're still pushing past the limit and “disturbing the comfortable”.

Janet Kay/Dennis Bovell – “Silly Games (Dub)”

The other night at Rough Trade East in London, for the launch event of the “Y” reissue, an event we called “Salon Y”, Dennis Bovell did a live dub mix of one of our tracks, the B-side of “She Is Beyond Good & Evil’, titled “3.38”. He happened to mention that “3.38” borrowed some snare-drum passages from this dub.

One for the diehards.

P-Funk All Stars – “Hydraulic Pump”

George Clinton, Eddie Hazel, Jerome “Bigfoot” Brailey right through to Bootsy Collins, have all been a constant source of inspiration, and that's been the backbone of my daily “keeping fit” regime ever since I was 14.

Ah, one last thing! Can you tell us where the idea for the title of the album “Y” came from, and why you chose that particular cover?

One of the mysteries of the universe.

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