Laetitia Sadier - Activism and art-pop as a way to heal from trauma

It all started with a photo, taken by yours truly on the occasion of the return to Italy of Stereolab, at the Orion in Ciampino (Rome) on 10 November 2022, 21 years after that Roman gig at Enzimi (21 September 2001) that made me fall irrevocably in love with the band. Among the comments, I find a “Nice pictures (for once!)”, signed by none other than Laetitia Sadier. That's when a long pursuit began, one that carried on right up until a few days ago, when we finally managed to make the long-promised interview happen. A lot has happened in the meantime: the aftermath of a global pandemic, two devastating wars, a frightening political shift in France (and Europe more generally) and, thankfully, a new Laetitia album, titled “Rooting For Love”. That's where we start this interview, after a preamble duly dedicated to the memory of the queen of French chanteuses, Françoise Hardy. A wide-ranging conversation, which will range from her solo career to revelations about the troubled dynamics within Stereolab, from the traumas of the French Revolution to today's political risks, from Mina to Giorgio Tuma. With a sense of confident activism running beneath every topic, in the name of a utopia: that of a collective harmony that might finally supplant this era of division and self-absorption.

Hi, Laetitia. How are you?

Good, thanks. And you?

Good, I'm happy to finally be able to do this interview!

Thank you. Well, we haven't done it yet, but now we're much closer. Much closer!

Indeed… So I'd inevitably like to start with a question about Françoise Hardy, who passed away just a few days ago. What did she represent for you, as a French singer and for the music of your country in general? Did she influence you in any way?

Not at first. When I was young I identified much more with France Gall. And then, above all, with Brigitte Fontaine. Françoise Hardy was much more subtle, more ethereal, not as immediate. She explored themes around women, but at the time I felt it was all too romantic for my punk sensibility. But she was a great singer. I particularly love the album “La Question”, which she wrote with the Brazilian singer Tuca. It's absolutely gorgeous. In that case, I didn't just identify with her, I also felt enriched by her songs, personally and as a woman. So, all in all, I can say that Françoise Hardy was very important to me.

I think we should always remember that she wasn't just “the yé-yé girl of the 60s”, as many media outlets simply reduce her to…

Yes, absolutely. I don't know why the media always want to reduce people to just one thing. Just and simply “Tous les garçons et les filles…” (she hums the song, ed.)… But she was so much more than that. Her early work is almost negligible compared to what she did and wrote afterwards, to how she evolved as a poet, as a songwriter. A very skilled and very powerful songwriter. Not just that sweet little creature, as women are so often labelled, as if they were ultimately small, insignificant things.

But I think she also made some beautiful songs in the 60s.

Yes, of course, but then she grew and evolved further, and society often tends to suppress that kind of strong female statement.

Let's talk about your latest album, “Rooting For Love”. It came out six years after the previous one. Why did you wait so long, and what did you do during that time?

Well, there was a two-year lockdown in that period… I could have released an album, but I wouldn't have been able to tour it. Maybe in the future I'll release an album without touring it, but right now being able to do that is really essential for me. The live element matters to me when making a record. So I simply didn't want to release anything during that time. Then I also got quite badly hit by Covid myself, and I really didn't have the energy to put out a record. And anyway, in general, I'm in no rush to release albums, I need to take my time working on them. During that period I was also in the middle of a long tour with Stereolab…

Yes, I saw you near Rome, in Ciampino, in 2022… Do you remember that photo?

Oh yes, that place near Rome. I remember the photo too!

Giorgio Tuma and Marker Starling made an important contribution to my latest record: they have a classic approach to music, not a strictly experimental one. And that's true for me too: I'm no John Cage, but I like to push boundaries. I like the idea of letting the music guide me, because if I start controlling every single aspect of what I do, it just doesn't sound as good.

In our OndaRock review we called “Rooting For Love” a brave album, because it attempts to experiment within pop territory. Did your recent collaborations also influence the result? Can you tell us, in particular, something about your work with Giorgio Tuma and Marker Starling?

I'm not sure how specifically an album gets influenced… Everything influences and enriches my work, but Giorgio Tuma and Marker Starling are really excellent songwriters and composers. They have a more classic way of approaching music, they're not what I'd call “experimental”, but they are exploratory in their way of writing songs. But obviously everything has an impact on my writing and on my explorations, and it's true that I like to push boundaries. I like to do it in my own way, very humbly, but I want to feel invincible! I'm no John Cage, I don't have that approach, but I'm still very sensitive to how my music connects to reality, to the surrounding environment. My approach is to let the music guide me, not to dictate every single note myself. Because I've noticed that when I do that, when I try to control every aspect of the music, it doesn't sound as good. Whereas when I let the music guide me, it's very different. And now I'm mature enough to have understood that. It becomes a sort of guided unconscious process. I'm not even sure who's guiding whom! But that's not the point. The point is to let yourself be guided.

On “Rooting For Love” you also brought in a vocal group, The Choir. How did they influence your singing style?

It's no secret that I love voices. I adore The Choir. I've even sung in The Choir. There's a special power in a collective voice, and I wanted it to be present and prominent on my album: I feel very connected to that idea. And I think it's important right now to have human voices singing together as one. Another key theme of the record, in fact, is unity, as a cornerstone principle of humanity. If humanity really wants to find its way again, it will have to seek out the reasons for unity, for collectivity, instead of obeying the divisive nature of capitalism, this kind of 3D illusion whereby everything is separate. But that's not how it is. All that this kind of approach brings about is division and wars. And look where we are now. We're well on the way to war, we're already living through a war and we'll be drawn further and further into it, because we're hypnotized by the idea that we're all separate entities, that we're in competition with one another and that the other person is some kind of enemy. And that simply isn't true. We are one, even though each of us is different. So the choir is also meant to represent that concept.

It's the perfect demonstration of that, really…

Yes, but it also makes everything harmonious: you can hear different voices in there, because everyone is different, everyone is unique.

Everyone is different, but the result is a collective voice.

Exactly. But it's not a "fascist" voice. Fascism simply means "everyone obeys this format". And that's absolutely not my point of view. I want to promote the idea that everyone possesses something unique, with which they can contribute to the collective.

Knowing your political views, I had no doubts about that…

I have to make it clear because, you know… look at the recent results of the European elections in France…

The results of the European elections in France were a shock. It was like a blow to the stomach and to the face. That Bardella will probably win and lead us into chaos, with the state abandoning the public sphere and new social rifts opening up

Yeah, I know. Are you worried?

I had just arrived in Paris from London that Sunday, when we got the results, and I was shocked. It was like a blow to the stomach and to the face. For about a week I was in shock, even though it was expected… A similar scenario played out in Italy and, apparently, we'll have it here too. I'm fairly sure that Bardella will manage to pull it off.

He'll win the elections…

He doesn't have a program. Or rather, he has a program, but no political ideas. So we have to prepare for further chaos resulting from the state abandoning the public sphere, leaving it to private companies that will further destroy the social fabric. So yes, it's worrying, but I don't want to be defeatist and depressed about it, even though it would be easy to be. Above all, I want to make sure we're really taking it all in. There's also an interesting result from the left, from the ecologist parties to the communist party, from the socialists to the more radical La France Insoumise… they're saying "Ok, well, now we have to join forces". And they're really trying to do it.

Even though it's always very hard to find unity on the left, even in Italy. It's a big problem for the left in general, all over the world.

Yes, because they let themselves be driven by ego and lose sight of the priorities that should unite them. It's all a matter of ego. And that's also an important theme on my album: trying to see beyond the ego, because the ego is like an obstacle to discovering our true nature. There's something more within us than the ego leads us to believe. And the ego can be manipulated by the media. You know what? If you don't let yourself be conditioned by the ego and remain truly sovereign of yourself, you're less likely to be influenced by what others think of you. And you're also less likely to be manipulated by the media horror show that hammers us every day.

We're all traumatized, it's like a collective wound. But only we ourselves can heal it. The only form of healing is to look deeply within ourselves and stop projecting our shadow sides and our anger onto others.

On your album you make "an appeal to the traumatized populations of the planet, so that they can finally evolve beyond millennia of suffering and alienation". What specific realities are you referring to? And how do you think it's possible to carry out this mission?

It might sound strange, but that's what I've gone through in recent months and years. I've received some information from my body, from my cells, from my DNA. Yes, some information from past lives knocks on my door and tells me there was trauma here and trauma there. The French Revolution lasted 10 years, the last five of which became known as "La Terreur". And I have what feel like clear memories of the years lived during "La Terreur", in particular of when I was a disabled 5-year-old girl, unable to move her legs, who had been abandoned by her family, who'd had to flee in a hurry and left me there, to die of hunger, thirst and fear. As if I had lived through it, but in another body, at another time, during the years of the Terreur. It's frightening. And that's just one example from those years, and I know the French people were traumatized, betrayed, pushed to the fiercest rage. It's so infuriating when you're deliberately treated like dirt, so that someone can assert power and have full authority over you. So it was a historical moment when we sought our sovereignty as a people, and what we got instead was "La Terreur", the very opposite of what we believed was possible. We got rid of the monarchy, but we replaced it with another form of oppressive external authority, not with our freedom. So we tried and we failed. And I think we've never worked through this collective wound, never looked deeply enough at how it generated a collective malaise.

A collective wound for the whole French people…

There's a collective wound. I mean, I'm talking about the French, about my experience here. But it's just an example, because I can see that the Irish are completely traumatized, and Italians too have deep wounds that need to heal. It's a general problem.

What's the cure?

We have the cure. We are the cure. What we need to do is dig inside ourselves and look for the traces of these wounds: get in touch with our past "self" and question it. It might have things to tell us, and we need to listen carefully. Everything out there is built so that you can avoid it: looking at your phone, always being busy, so that you never have to reckon with yourself. But if you don't, you can't heal: all the filth, all the good, all the bad, all the pain, even the pleasures... we have to feel them and metabolize them. If you don't do this work of introspection, on all the things about yourself you don't want to see, you'll end up projecting them onto others. And that's exactly how wars start. Look at the Jews and the Palestinians right now. It's all rage, darkness that hasn't been absorbed and is now being projected onto others. The result is wars, and huge profits for a very lucrative industry...

Let's go back to music. Your solo output has moved away from the original art-kraut-pop of Stereolab, exploring territories like lounge pop, bossa nova and film music: can you tell us how your interest in these genres came about, and which artists influenced you along the way?

I don't know. I'm not good at cataloguing and archiving things. But I can say that Brigitte Fontaine was really important to me. And in fact certain Brazilian music has always fascinated me too, partly because it was born as a creative response to the fascist regime, at the time of the dictatorship in Brazil in the late 60s and 70s.

Yes, are you referring to the Tropicália movement?

Yes, it was really important. And it's for the same reasons that I was a big fan of McCarthy, because there was this kind of very "jingly" pop music, with beautiful songs and gorgeous melodies. It was amazing. And in the lyrics they tried to tackle the darkness of the human psyche, analyzing its complexity and how it would translate into the political sphere. Because Malcolm (Eden, the singer, ed.) wasn't so much interested in feelings, but in seeking political answers from people. So, yes, I found them a truly fascinating band. The transformative power of music has been a great friend to me. I was quite lonely, and music really meant a lot to me: if it hadn't been for music, I don't think I would have lived very long.

Is Tim Gane, on the other hand, "the Velvet Underground soul" of Stereolab?

Sure, he loves them, but so do I... I'm a huge Velvet fan. They're my foundations: Velvet Underground, Young Marble Giants... and McCarthy too. Then I was always fascinated by Residents. But My Bloody Valentine were also fundamental for me, and the Tropicalia movement. Things like that. But the Velvet were decisive: once you connect with them, you can't look back. It's as if you simply can't not see, can't not perceive their importance.

Projects with Stereolab? Maybe there are, but it's too early to talk about it. The problems with Tim arose from the fact that he didn't want me to be musically involved in the band, only for writing lyrics and singing. It was very frustrating for me, so I created Monade. I felt the need to finally give life to my own musical ideas. With my own rhythms, without being forced into anything anymore. Curiously, I later realized the contrast in words between mono and stereo in the two projects!

Speaking of Stereolab, it was wonderful to see you play live again in Ciampino (Rome). Are there any projects coming up for Stereolab?

Maybe there are, but I can't discuss it.

Can't you give us a hint?

No, it's too early, I really can't talk about it.

What's your favorite Stereolab album, or the one you feel most attached to?

I don't know. "Not Music", maybe, the last one.

Really? I wasn't expecting that… What about the classic records?

I don't know. Honestly, I'd rather not talk about the old Stereolab records. Maybe one day we'll talk about some new Stereolab records. In the meantime, I've got a new album coming out, I've got eight albums under my belt… Anyway, yes, I'm still in Stereolab. I'm also in Isidora, in the Source Ensemble, in Modern Cosmology, there's a lot to talk about!

You've also released three albums under the name Monade. Can you tell us something about that project? Is it now definitively over?

No, I never think of my projects as things that come to an end. I think of them as a continuum. I started Monade because Tim didn't want me musically involved in the band, only for writing lyrics and singing. That was very frustrating for me, because music is also my form of expression. He wanted to control it completely, but my desire to create my own music kept growing stronger. That's the power of creativity, and it's always bound to grow, whatever happens, no matter how much you try to suppress it.

You had so many ideas in a drawer and finally managed to bring them out…

I had dreams, like wet dreams, and songs that came pouring out of my dreams. So the Monade project was born from that. And it's funny, because I'd heard the term "monad", meaning a unit, something that cannot be divided. And I thought, what a beautiful word… It took me a few years to realize that I was in a band with my boyfriend called Stereolab and I'd created a solo project calling it Monade. So "mono" and "stereo". It took me three years to realize the unconscious side of my choice of name!

Actually, I'd never thought about the "mono-stereo" wordplay… So did you finally feel free with Monade?

Exactly. Basically Monade was like my playground, because I couldn't really play guitar that well, I couldn't measure up to Tim Gane as a songwriter: he had far more experience, while I was inexperienced and just starting out. In that playground, though, I felt safe. There were no boundaries. I wasn't trying to build a solo career and outdo Stereolab. There were no other goals besides opening up a space where I could feel happy and safe. Hoping I could join up with people who weren't necessarily the type to say "oh, I'm the greatest songwriter on Earth!". People who simply had the desire to make songs, to enjoy the musical process, to do it at their own pace and let it unfold, instead of forcing it. I didn't want any more forcing, I just wanted things to emerge, in their own time.

I can understand how you felt within Stereolab. But actually I think the role of the singer in a band is underrated: to me, it's almost as important as that of the person who writes the music. I mean, I love Stereolab also and especially for your voice, your way of singing and interpreting the songs…

Thank you. It's also the hardest thing to do, you know, because singing is directly connected to your emotions. So you're exposing yourself directly, especially when you're not a trained singer, as in my case. I never went to opera school, so I don't have the technique to hide my emotions.

So your style is very natural, instinctive…

Yes. Writing lyrics is also very difficult, very demanding, it involves huge responsibility! You have to use poetic or evocative words without being too on-the-nose, and have the ability to open the doors to the imagination of the sensory and emotional field. It's an art. At first I was happy to do it, but, again, I wasn't trained for it. I did it all as we went along, and Tim would write 50 songs for an album, 35 of which we'd record. So we had to act, we had to produce very quickly. And for me it's hard to write 35 songs, 35 lyrics in "bam bam bam bam bam" mode.

Perhaps, in fact, the only flaw of Stereolab was precisely an excessive prolificacy, at least in certain periods.

That's why we had to have all these albums, because we had so much material! And writing lyrics, I think, is the hardest thing you can do. Writing a melody is easy, man. Tim is without doubt a great songwriter, but he left me the hardest tasks in putting a song together. Unfortunately, it's true that a singer's work is often underrated, especially when it's a woman doing it. Her work won't be given the same value as a man's, and that's the result of millennia of patriarchy.

I agree. I think sexism is still very widespread in the music world.

We're deeply steeped in it, but in the end this patriarchal outlook doesn't serve anyone, not even men themselves. They think it works in their favor, but it doesn't, because a large part of their sensitivity, their ability to feel and express emotions, has been switched off. And that's dramatic. I see so many men who are completely lost these days. And the old methods of self-medication don't work anymore. So yes, maybe they'll go to war. Fine, go to war, kill people. If that's your plan, well, maybe you should change it. It doesn't serve anyone, and at this point it puts the life of the entire planet at risk.

In my case, though, I want to defend myself: I adore female singers, and at OndaRock I've always tried to give them their due (laughs).

That's fantastic!

What are the latest albums you've enjoyed listening to, and which recent artists would you like to collaborate with?

As for recent artists, there's this record by Zooey… I'm terrible at remembering names. Well, I listened to the new Broadcast album, I think it's really beautiful. I'd love to collaborate with Ben LaMar Gay. Yes, let's see, what else have I listened to? Oh yes, Sofia Bolt. If you like singer-songwriters, you'll love her work, she has a very extensive and interesting body of work. What else… I like Susan James, she'll be putting out an album next month. I've already heard her record because she's a friend of mine and played it for me, I love her songwriting, it's truly spectacular. And a Mauritanian singer, Noura Mint Seymali, her voice hits me straight in the soul, the same goes for Maluma, who's also a North African singer. Extremely powerful artists, singers and producers. Arto Lindsay has released a new album, I really love it, I'm a huge fan of Arto. The Rrose album called "Please Touch" is interesting. And "Ahora" by Melena is a good album… The new Oscar Mulero, "Drifting Northward Ep". And finally, the new Aquaserge record, called "La Fin de L'Economie", is really a triumph.

Among the classics of Italian music I love Mina, a singer who truly has it all, and Lucio Battisti. But I find it incredible that Giorgio Tuma's work still hasn't been given the recognition it deserves: he has enormous talent and I'm a huge fan of his! Even in France we often fail to recognize the merits of our own artists, sometimes we even hate them, maybe because we're disgusted with ourselves.

What's your relationship with Italy like? Do you like any Italian musicians?

Is it Mina?

Yes, Mina, the queen of Italian singers!

Yes. "Parole parole parole" (she hums it, ed.). She really has it all: the songs, the voice, the attitude, the passion, the courage, and that's truly remarkable. And also the songwriting and the way she produces music. Of course there's a great musical tradition in Italy… Lucio Battisti… I mean, that kind of songs. But then there's also new stuff: for instance, I'm a big fan of Giorgio Tuma.

Yes, we at OndaRock appreciate him too and we review his albums…

Good. I'm glad you know him, but that's not enough. I think it's very sad that Italy still hasn't been able to recognize his great talent. He should have received much more recognition in his own country.

Yes, he'd deserve a lot more attention.

And you know what? In France, we do the same thing with our own artists. We hate them because we're disgusted with ourselves. We hate ourselves, and so we take it out on our own artists. And we'd rather love American artists than our own children, and so we project our self-hatred onto our own artists.

Actually, in Italy we're used to thinking that France has a much more nationalist approach than we do…

France has had a bit of confidence thanks to the success of Air, Phoenix and Daft Punk. But before that, for instance, the way we hated ourselves in the 90s was tragic. People were so critical of each other that they'd have shot you if you dared propose anything creative…

I actually saw Air live in Rome just a few days ago… I generally love French music.

We can safely say that we have a kind of musical identity tied to being French. I think we really need reassurance that, okay, we can be ourselves. We shouldn't hate ourselves. We can absolutely be creative and love what we do. It was hard for me to see what happened to Giorgio, especially during a radio programme we did on national radio — they treated him so badly, as if they wanted to punish him for daring to put his creativity out there…

Really?

If you treat artists well, you encourage them. I think that's what you should do if you're a national radio station. Instead they treated him as if they wanted to tear him down. It was heartbreaking to watch that cruelty.

Another Italian musical genre you should like, judging by Stereolab's music, is 60s and 70s lounge-style soundtrack music… Composers like Piccioni, Umiliani, Morricone, of course, and many others.

Yes, of course, I love that music too.

Great, so will we see you on tour in Italy?

Yes, I'm planning to come to Italy in November. I'll be going to Rome, Perugia, Milan and maybe other cities too. Stay tuned, I'll be announcing it soon!

Okay, the last question is open-ended. Is there anything you'd like to say to our readers?

Yes, I'd like to close with this… I've realised from a lot of conversations that people now think communism and fascism are the same thing. And they are absolutely not the same thing!

Maybe the historical form the regime took was the same, but obviously not the ideology.

Yes, the ideology is fundamentally very different, because communism fully accepts and recognises that we are all different, that we all have something different to bring to this world, and that we should each flourish as individuals within a collective, a community. At the heart of a community, everyone can make their qualities bear fruit. Fascism isn't that. Fascism is "everyone does and obeys the same authority." There will be one rule for the people and another for the elites in power.

That's simply the end of freedom.

Yes, voilà. It's not easy to achieve freedom for everyone, because there are things that need to be taken care of. So there has to be some kind of organization. I really like Cornelius Castoriadis's analysis, where he talked about self-organization. We need to trust in our capacity to self-organize, we have to do it, in order to function, so as not to be dragged into chaos. You have to put up a red light and a green light, and people need to understand that red means stop, green means go. Otherwise it's chaos. The organizing force lies within nature. Wisdom is within us. And we need to trust that it's there. Living in a state of fear will only produce negative results. Basically, we should have a lot more trust in ourselves, instead of always being suspicious. Yes, voilà.

Thank you so much, Laetitia, and good luck with everything, à bientôt!

Bye bye!

(Contributions by Gianfranco Marmoro)

(30/06/2024)

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