Claudio Lolli - A Life on the Wrong Side

Do you remember Michel? And the happy gypsies rolling around in Piazza Maggiore? And will he still be waiting for Godot? Claudio Lolli's world lives on onstage, thanks to new live sets – performed as a trio – including readings of his poems and stories, which have long made up another substantial part of the Bolognese singer-songwriter's artistic output. An artist we – let's be honest – don't deserve: too many silly labels, too much superficiality, too much ignorance have for years kept this long-white-bearded Bolognese professor from being recognized for what he is: one of the masters of Italian songwriting. Now, helped along by a rediscovery on the part of younger colleagues – among them Luca Carboni and Riccardo Sinigallia, who covered his legendary “I've Also Seen Happy Gypsies” – something is finally stirring. So, on the occasion of his Rome date at the Auditorium, we caught up with him for an interview. And we found a courteous, self-deprecating, sensitive man, who patiently answered every question. Though the grudges he's held onto over the years, he's kept every single one of them.

I'd like to start with this new live format of yours, as a trio: what kind of performance is it?

Actually we've had this lineup for a while now: a trio with a guitar (Paolo Capodacqua), Nicola Alesini on saxophones and electronics, and then there's me, who doesn't really do anything… I sing, talk and read a bit of text here and there. It's more of a recital than a pop-rock concert.

Finally your songs seem to be getting rediscovered by new generations too. Luca Carboni and Riccardo Sinigallia, for example, teamed up on a cover of “I've Also Seen Happy Gypsies”. How do you feel about this, and what do you think of that cover in particular?

Yes, I liked the cover, both Luca's version and Riccardo's. I'm grateful to everyone - it's the kind of thing that makes you happy.

Maybe time really is a gentleman after all… for too many years your songs went unnoticed.

Well, I'm sorry to say - maybe even more so than you are (we laugh). But my more recent records, which I think are actually pretty good, came out on independent labels, which obviously don't get much visibility, except among die-hard fans.

Let's talk about this wonderful song: how did it come about, and what does it still mean today, “I've Also Seen Happy Gypsies”?

The song and the album were born together: the core concept was the town square as the old agora, a place of social life, of encounters of every kind - political, romantic… The idea, without any pretension, was to tell the story of a generation, the contemporary reality of those years, filtered through this vantage point of the square. In my earlier work I'd gotten bogged down in a rather too rigid structure - like if I didn't write five verses the song didn't feel complete to me - and yet I also had a lot of shorter pieces that I liked, even though they didn't stand on their own. So I thought I'd gain more freedom by folding them into this single, long-form context. Musically too, we worked a lot with my friends, and we recorded the album after six months of touring, doing everything with real joy, with a lot of affection between us and a desire to have fun - and I think that's a working method that always pays off.

That square was also Piazza Maggiore, in Bologna, your city, which has given so much to Italian singer-songwriter music. What's your relationship with that scene?

Yes, for reasons I still haven't figured out, there are - or were - a lot of us. I listened a great deal to the songs of these colleagues of mine, and it certainly helped me a lot. Bologna undoubtedly had very fertile ground, and I've always admired Guccini, Dalla and others. But in general, the whole of the Seventies - whatever people say - weren't just the "years of lead", they were years of tremendous creativity. And not only for Italian singer-songwriters, but for all of great pop-rock: my children still listen to Pink Floyd and Rolling Stones. And even the Sixties records by Beatles.

Speaking of the Beatles, maybe few people know you're a huge fan of theirs. I'd even go so far as to say that certain melodic ideas in your songs betray that listening history.

Definitely: whatever you listen to with pleasure, with interest, with love, somehow leaves a seed that can later sprout. Their strength lies in the creativity, the genius and the originality of their songs. Their tracks remain incredible, today just as they were then. Few have achieved that capacity to innovate and to create: back in my day people used to say, "The Rolling Stones are great live, but the Beatles are great everywhere".

The more stereotypical view holds that you're one of the most "political" singer-songwriters of your generation…

Thank you for the word "stereotypical"! (we laugh)

Right, and I see it differently too: many of your songs are introspective and deal with themes like friendship (“Michel”), individual desolation (“Un uomo in crisi”, “Canzoni di morte”, “Canzoni di vita”), social and cultural issues (the very same “I've Also Seen Happy Gypsies”). What do you make of those who have always pigeonholed you that way, and who are perhaps the same people who put De Gregori on trial back in the Seventies for writing love songs?

I've spent my life trying to free myself from stereotypes. First I was born as the sad singer who supposedly incited young people toward depression and even suicide. Then the political singer, the engaged one - someone even went so far as to call me a "fellow traveller of the Red Brigades". Whereas I think that if you listen closely, it's clear that the range of themes I deal with is quite different.

And what effect does it have on you to listen back to your most political songs today? Do they still speak to the present, or are they tied to an era that's now hopelessly behind us?

Well, it's hard to say... I do think these times seem much harder to sing about in that way; maybe some rappers manage it.

Interesting: Finardi gave me the same answer too...

Really? I should say upfront that I'm not very well informed, so I might say something wildly foolish, but that sounds right to me. These days, though, the world is so confused that it seems really difficult to find a stance if you want to write political songs: you either fall into sloganeering, which is always fairly thin, or it becomes truly complicated.

Speaking of songwriters of your generation, you're known for your fondness for De Gregori. Since I was lucky enough to write a book about him, I'm curious: what do you like most about him?

Francesco De Gregori has written wonderful songs, ones beyond reach. But his way of singing is also extraordinary. And it's hard to find anything banal from him. In his records he's tackled every aspect of life, from songs for Pasolini or Tenco to sentimental ballads. Think of an album like “Bufalo Bill”: what a grand concept... or another one I adore, “Titanic”, with “I muscoli del capitano”, which gives me chills every time I hear it.

As for the more recent Italian scene, I read that you liked Samuele Bersani...

Yes, although he can no longer really be considered a “new songwriter”. Actually, I'm not very well informed about the current Italian scene, because I listen to other genres, but Bersani strikes me as someone with a very distinctive style, who shuns - sometimes even with excessive obsession - ease and banality. He has a style you recognize immediately, in short.

Over the years, alongside your work as a songwriter, you've also been a writer, poet and high-school teacher. Can you tell us something about this side of you, outside of music?

Well, first of all I can say that I've just published a novel with Stampa Alternativa, “Lettere matrimoniali”, and before that I put out a few poetry collections and two other books of short stories. It's an absurd habit, but I just can't resist...

My work as a high-school teacher, on the other hand, ended not long ago, but it left me with a great deal. It was wonderful work, the kids are wonderful, whatever people say, and among other things they taught me a lot too - for instance, how to overcome shyness, how to learn communication techniques: keeping teenagers awake for five hours every morning isn't easy.

But having Claudio Lolli as a teacher is also quite a stroke of luck!

Over time I learned above all to mix serious, deep talk with jokes and gags: I used to make them laugh a lot.

Another classic of yours is “Aspettando Godot”. Do you think we're still waiting, and what might Godot be today?

Until it arrives, that song will stay relevant! That's the beauty of waiting... I was very young at the time, seventeen, so I took Samuel Beckett's masterpiece and turned it into a very “pro-action” lyric. But actually that's not quite it: in a more “Leopardian” sense, it's a song about the beauty of waiting - the only acceptable thing is to wait, often the only hope too.

Last question: do you have new records planned? The last one, if I remember correctly, was “Lovesongs” from 2009...

Yes, that was exactly it. Right now I'm working on a new album, all unreleased material this time, I'm just finishing it up, but my problem isn't writing new songs, it's finding someone willing to release them afterwards…

…which really does sound absurd, but I hope the record can come out, and that maybe, with the opportunity, someone might also rediscover your old songs.

I like your optimism… (we laugh). But I hope so too!

(April 13, 2014)

(Extended version of an interview published in the newspaper “Leggo“)

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