Hezekiah Jones - Chris Bathgate - Folk music for the end of the world

Philadelphia – Ann Arbor: roughly 770 kilometers. A distance comparable, in Italy, to that between Milan and Bari; practically the vertical span of a good chunk of the boot. But in the United States, distances and travel times seem to magically shrink, at least from a subjective point of view.

We asked Raphael and Chris to face the same questions, in a hall-of-mirrors game where each seems to reflect the other's image: a double interview that's like a deep dive into the present state of American songwriting.

Pre-war folk, freak-folk, folktronica: is there still room, today, for a songwriter in the most classic sense of the term?

Raphael: I don't think a good song needs to fit into a specific genre. I think a songwriter who's good enough at their craft should write songs capable of easily reaching anyone, regardless of the musical vehicle used. In my view there are still songwriters of this kind around, but they often lack recognition from the masses, the kind of recognition they might have received in past eras, and that's tied to the major changes that have occurred over the last twenty years within the music industry. The music market seeks watered-down productions to a certain degree, and I believe some of the best songwriters aren't willing to lower themselves to meet that kind of expectation.

Chris: Yes, I think there's room for a songwriter in every genre, today as always. And I believe nostalgia will guarantee it. There will always be people who aspire to write the perfect archetype.

Today, within so-called indie music, it almost seems like simplicity is a burden to be shed as quickly as possible, in the name of an intellectualism that's increasingly an end in itself. What do you think about that?

Raphael: I'm not convinced that simplicity is a burden. I still appreciate what's simple, and I try as much as I can to keep things that way. I think simplicity is liberating, and in my opinion it's easier to connect with something that isn't overloaded with too many frills. I like short songs that are simple and direct. Last year at the Philadelphia Museum Of Art we were lucky enough to host an Andrew Wyeth exhibition, a man who paints the most seemingly overlooked scenes of America and highlights them, drawing out their absolute beauty precisely through their simplicity: a painting of a farmhouse, a bird in the sky, a window. As for the intellectualism angle, then, nothing intrigues me more than the ability to express a complex idea or notion by breaking it down into a concise, understandable form of "simplicity".

Chris: I disagree. I think simplicity is actually pretty dominant in "indie music" and shouldn't be seen as a burden at all. Spoon might be a good example, as might Cat Power: some of their songs are incredibly simple, and they're loved just as much as any of their more elaborate, complex arrangements. To me, songwriting as an art is generally a matter of choices: sometimes voice and guitar are enough to get an idea across, while other times you need tracks with fifteen guitars on them. I think that while simplicity might be perceived by some as a burden, on the other hand you could see those who write very elaborate songs as the brave ones. A songwriter might get judged for writing a song with three chords and a repetitive melody, but ultimately that's a choice that belongs to the songwriter, and if they change their technique or their methods or their ideas out of fear of being judged, well... maybe they need to grow up a little.

Where, if anywhere, is the balance between grounding your roots in a tradition and trying to push beyond it?

Raphael: I think for most musicians there is a balance in that sense. It's something fairly innate, in most cases: every musician starts out trying to imitate a particular sound or some artist; at a certain point, along the way, their own personality starts to emerge, maybe right from the start or maybe a few years down the line. If someone were content with just their roots, there'd be no progression: the idea of going beyond is the drive that gets a lot of people to pick up an instrument and start playing, but in the very act of going beyond, everyone is building on that background, on those roots that represent their starting point.

Chris: I think there is a balance. Outside of my songwriting, I play a lot of fiddle music, which is mostly of European origin. Some of the fiddle tunes are contemporary, but most are old pieces that have been played for many years. These days there are plenty of formats and all kinds of equipment to preserve these songs, but before we had the means to record them, they were only passed down orally, so they'd shift over time as they moved from one player to another. I think a lot of this music has still kept a trajectory of change, purists notwithstanding: new fiddle tunes are still being written today, and some have unusual arrangements, but for the most part they stay pretty faithful to the original structure. So, when it comes to the idea of going beyond what tradition represents, well, maybe you need to be really steeped in its inner workings before you can do that, and maybe that's exactly where the balance lies.

What does "good vibrations" mean to you?

Raphael: Interesting question. I like to think that "good vibrations" are vibrations that can originate from within themselves, and I like to believe that we all have at least some control over our vibrations in general. With that in mind, I think a "good vibration" is a vibration that has the strength and the ability to transform darker vibrations. Does that make any sense?

Chris: a. an oscillation around a point of equilibrium, specifically an oscillation that turns out to be pleasant

b. "Come To Our Pool Party" by Hezekiah Jones

c. What Brian Wilson puts together while on a good acid trip.

Make a wish: if you had to choose between being able to write a verse worthy of Dylan's pen or a melodic line that would make the Beatles jealous, which would you go for?

Raphael: It depends on what time of day I get to choose: before breakfast, after a few drinks, during a nap... Who wouldn't want to write at least one song that was on par with, or even better than, a Dylan melody or a Beatles track? Personally, I think I appreciate Dylan's writing more, but the production on the Beatles' albums is so perfect, and the songs work so well as a whole... Both of them have a massive catalogue of chart-topping songs: that must be a great feeling.

Chris: I'd rather write a song that would make the Beatles jealous.

What does a song need in order to reach you on a deep level?

Raphael: To have any chance of nestling its way inside me, the first quality a song needs is honesty. The tracks that really win me over, I listen to them over and over again. I'm not exactly sure what it is that lets certain songs reach me so deeply: they can be folk songs or metal songs, it doesn't matter. I think I'm particularly sensitive to universal themes hidden behind small details, as well as to specific subjects that seem unimportant on first listen. Will Oldham has always had his own special way of winning me over, and lately there's a guy from Ohio, who records under the moniker Nostra Nova, with several interesting songs. Sharp, well-developed lyrics also seem to play their part in this process.

Chris: For a song to win me over, it has to have something I can relate to or identify with. Most of the time it's the lyrics that play that role, but not always. A few years ago Ross Huff (a trumpet player who often plays with me) hummed a melody to me that immediately reached deep into my soul. I wish I could remember whose it was, I think it was called "Ghost".

In a famous statement, the American writer T.S. Eliot said: "The only way of expressing emotion in the form of art is by finding an objective correlative; in other words, a set of objects, a situation, a chain of events which shall be the formula of that particular emotion." How much of your own personal experience is there in the imagery of your songs? And do you agree with what Eliot claims?

Raphael: I think there's a lot of me in some of these songs, aside from the "fiction" factor. I imagine most songwriters generally draw on their own experiences, or those of the people around them. Many of my songs are little stories based on events in my life, or on ideas I feel the need to express. I agree with Eliot: I think formula matters when you're trying to explain a concept, or convey the sense of what you're saying to someone else. You're always looking for something that can transfer a picture of feelings and ideas to the listener, and that's hard to do while jumping around all over the place.

Chris: I consider myself the product of my experiences and my thoughts, and that's exactly what my songs represent too. I agree with Eliot: to express an emotion, we tend to entrust it to situations that evoke that same emotion, rather than stating it outright.

What's the one thing you'd never want said about your music?

Raphael: "Boring, inconsequential, with songs that all sound the same" — that kind of comment. I've heard plenty of things I never wanted to hear, but on the other hand I have to admit I've also gotten some flattering feedback. I try not to give too much weight to either the positive or the negative, so I don't get distracted by either one. What I prefer is when a few people I trust give me some criticism after shows: I've got a handful of people whose opinion I trust, who are very honest about how my live performances go, and that's something I really appreciate.

Chris: I'll pass on that one.

Is it harder to find the right inspiration to write a song, or the courage needed to face an audience?

Raphael: I find it's harder to actually finish songs. Last year I played live a huge amount as Hezekiah Jones. In the years before that I played keyboards in StillWillis, and this is my first experience playing guitar live and fronting a band. That naturally demanded an enormous amount of energy from me, so much so that I really haven't been able to find the time to finish several songs, and I still have a lot of them sitting unfinished, half-done: some of them might just stay that way. Sometimes live I'll play one of these half-songs, "Toronto", which lasts thirty seconds total; I think it catches people off guard the moment it ends, almost before it's begun. Sometimes I actually like it precisely because it's like that.

Chris: I'd say it's harder to find the inspiration, since that's what makes the work easier. Writing when you don't feel inspired and the words won't come is definitely harder than facing an audience.

Which fingerpicker has impressed you the most live?

Raphael: I saw Paul Curreri play in Philadelphia not long ago. I was mesmerized. I was captivated by his playing, his melodies, his songs, and above all his stage presence: he's really an impressive character to go see. I could say the same about Tommy Emmanuel. I saw him when I was working as a cook at a venue outside Philadelphia; I saw some incredible shows there, and the Australian Emmanuel played one of those shows. A real showman — they should put him on YouTube.

Chris: Matt Jones. He's a friend of mine, and I really consider that a stroke of luck, because Matt is the best songwriter I've ever come across. As a kid he studied ragtime and he still plays it on piano now and then, if I bug him enough about it. Picture a Doc Watson gone mad for ragtime, and double the depth and flamboyance of his picking style. Go see a Matt Jones show live — you have to see it to believe it.

Taking part in a compilation, besides having the advantage of widening each participating artist's audience, can also be a good chance to meet other artists and spark potential collaborations. How much do you agree with that statement?

Raphael: Yes, of course I agree. I've been lucky enough to meet some of the artists who took part in the "Folk Music For The End Of The World" compilation, put out by Yer Bird. I also got the chance to play some shows with O'Death, Chris Bathgate and Sarah White, which probably would never have happened without that compilation. It's great meeting artists from other parts of the country and/or the world — I like getting a sense of what's going on elsewhere. I play a lot of shows in Philadelphia alongside plenty of bands I've become friends with, and I find it rewarding to extend those friendships beyond my own city.

Chris: I agree. I really love the compilations I've taken part in, and I've listened to and met quite a few of the artists featured on them. Raph and I are planning to put out a split on vinyl this summer.

And speaking of that, your musical paths have already crossed several times. What's your take on your fellow interviewee, both musically and as a person?

Raphael: I managed to do a few shows with Chris and spend some time with him over the past few months. I'm a big fan of Chris's music: Yer Bird sent me "Throatsleep" a while back, and it was the classic case of an album that didn't leave my CD player for several weeks. I liked it so much that I ended up lending it to my brother, thinking he'd appreciate it too, and I haven't seen it since. On a personal level, I can say Chris is a genuinely good guy, just like his music. He was a very generous host during the few days I spent in Michigan for the shows we played in his area. We've got a good rapport, and we're planning to do more shows together in the future: in that sense, I expect it'll be a good year.

Chris: Musically speaking, I find Raph to be incredible. I have great respect and deep admiration for his songwriting, and I'm a bit envious of his skill and solidity live. Personally, I think he's outstanding on both fronts. Raph also has a fantastic laugh, you should try calling him and telling him a joke, just as an excuse to hear it.

MySpace: a resource capable of upending the usual dynamics of the music scene, or just a jumble of exhibitionism where it's getting harder and harder to stand out?

Raphael: MySpace obviously has its strengths and its weaknesses. Musicians who use MySpace benefit from being able to reach people they wouldn't otherwise have a chance to connect with in everyday life, and among those people, naturally, are both listeners and label reps. As far as I'm concerned, if it hadn't been for MySpace I might never have gotten in touch with Yer Bird, the label that later took me under its wing. Through the wonders of MySpace I've also come across new music and new friends that I now really appreciate. That said, there's a ton of music to wade through, a ton of weird people to filter out, and then a ton of Macy's credit card ads and porn, and those things constantly remind me why I don't necessarily always get along with much of today's pop culture and mainstream online media. Like I said: strengths and weaknesses.

Chris: I think MySpace is a great tool for a lot of musicians, but I don't think it's a passing fad, I actually think it's going to stick around for a long time. The strange thing about MySpace is how everything is so interconnected: film, music, theater, porn, spam, all lumped together in the same place. The commercial side and the personal side of exchanging messages blend together in a pretty unusual way. That said, I don't really think there's much chance of "breaking out" in the world of MySpace. It seems to work both ways: the "losers" have their MySpace page just as much as artists signed to well-known major labels. Nobody ever really breaks out of MySpace. MySpace just helps a lot of people find the music they're interested in... and people go looking for that very music right there on MySpace.

In the age of mp3s, the vinyl market is making a forceful comeback. A passing fad, one of many signs of discomfort with modernity, a conscious nostalgic reawakening, or...?

Raphael: It's probably a conscious nostalgic reawakening, or at least that's what I hope. I like records, and as the future seems to be barreling toward us faster than ever, the vinyl revival might give people a chance to reconnect with the past before it's all lost for good. The future of music is in microchips implanted in the brain (or so it'll be if the Robot-God takes over), and in the next four to six months turntables will probably go the way of the dodo or the dinosaurs.

Chris: I think the vinyl market's revival has a lot to do with mp3s, as well as with the current market value of a compact disc. In my opinion, buying and listening to a vinyl record, especially a new one, helps restore that trust in the album as a tangible artifact, a trust that's sadly been lost over time. Nostalgia also has a lot to do with this process, but from an artist's point of view, the thing is that this way you can be sure the listening experience will be the same every time: you know people will be sitting at home listening to your music and will probably pay more attention to the artwork, opening up the album, stopping to flip through its contents, and so on. That's clearly the kind of consideration made from a songwriter's perspective, and from that angle I understand why a lot of artists might want to release new music exclusively on vinyl. The vinyl trade is also a way to pick up old albums cheaply: I know some people who own huge vinyl collections, and in most cases what makes it possible is being able to buy a lot of the old albums they want at extremely low prices.

The record that changed your life.

Raphael: "Days In The Wake" by Palace Brothers. I never would have picked up a guitar if it weren't for that album. It gave me the luxury of not feeling the need to impress people with my technique, since I don't have much of it, but at the same time it opened my eyes to the beauty of the rawest performances and to the "less is more" mindset, as well as to the idea of a good song being able to win out over everything else.

Chris: "Being There" by Wilco.

If you were old Hezekiah Jones, the protagonist of the poem "Black Cross", what would you be willing to face the gallows for?

Raphael: I think mine is the classic answer: I'd sacrifice my life for my family and the people I love. I wouldn't die for some creed, because I don't believe in creeds. Maybe I'd die for books. I love books, just like old Hezekiah, even though, unlike what happens to the poem's protagonist, they're not my "rainy season" — but they could still become that: if they were the last books on earth and they contained great stories or something equally important, I'd consider the possibility of dying for them, if that could guarantee their future survival.

Chris: Well, I'm not so sure Hezekiah in that poem actually sacrificed his life, it seems to me more like he was unjustly hanged because of the ideals he believed in: he's a martyr for his own ideas, he didn't offer himself up. If you're asking what causes or values I'd die for, I'd say there are very few, and I'll leave it at that.

Taking a cue from one of Chris's songs: suppose you had to undergo a reset of your memory and could only keep the memory of one of your own songs to recover the moment you woke up ("Save One For The Morning"). Which track would you choose, and why?

Raphael: If it had to be one of my songs, I think I'd choose “Circumstance”, hoping that it could then jog my memory enough to bring everything else back too. I guess after that I'd have to buckle down and start writing a ton again, or maybe at that point I should just change careers. Maybe I could be a solid sandwich designer. Avocado, emmenthal and bacon between two slices of whole wheat bread. Doesn't that sound inviting?

Chris: “Coda”. The memories that song brings up are very important to me.

Quoting a song by Raphael: which side are you on? (political…ahem, free interpretation)

Raphael: Hmmmm, how to answer that… I don't like talking about politics, so I'll try to keep it short. I'm registered as an independent on the electoral rolls. I have no faith in either the Republican or the Democratic Party, and I have no intention of voting for the lesser of two evils. I vote for the Greens in every election hoping they'll hit 5% of the vote, which would guarantee them federal funding for the next round of elections; so far they still haven't gotten there, but I keep hoping for the future. Wars are very unpopular with the American public these days. Unfortunately, though, big business has long since taken over the government, hijacking its decisions, and war is big business. As George W. Bush would say: “Money always wins out over peace”.

Chris: I can assure you I'm on the right side.

A thought for your fellow interviewee.

Raphael: Hey Chris, thanks for letting me sleep on your couch for a few days. Now I finally understand the importance of the “spreader gun” and the Robot God: thanks for enlightening me on that. Don't forget to bring “Highlander” when you come back to Philadelphia, and maybe bring some doughnuts and something else to snack on too.

Chris: Hey Raph, I can't wait to kick off our summer tour down the east coast and back up to Michigan. Also, when is the Super Humble Country Band going to buy a school bus to tour around in?

And one for your interviewers.

Raphael: These questions were tough to tackle. Thanks for giving me the chance to write like I was back in college again; I did my best. I hope everything's going well on your fine continent. I'd love to visit as soon as possible, so make some room on your couch or floor.

Chris: Thanks for all these interesting questions. Sorry it took me so long to finish answering them.

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