Laetitia Sadier - Activism and art-pop as a way to heal from trauma

It all started with a photo, taken by yours truly on the occasion of the return to Italy of Stereolab, at the Orion in Ciampino (Rome) on 10 November 2022, 21 years after that Roman gig at Enzimi (21 September 2001) that made me fall irrevocably in love with the band. Among the comments I found a "Nice pictures (for once!)", signed by none other than Laetitia Sadier. From there began a long chase, which continued right up until a few days ago, when we finally managed to put together the promised interview. A lot has happened in between: the aftermath of a global pandemic, two devastating wars, a frightening political shift in France (and Europe in general) and, thankfully, a new album from Laetitia, titled "Rooting For Love". That's where we start this interview, after the preamble we felt duty-bound to dedicate to the memory of the queen of the chanteuses françaises, Françoise Hardy. A wide-ranging chat, touching on everything from her solo career to revelations about the troubled dynamics within Stereolab, from the traumas of the French Revolution to today's political risks, from Mina to Giorgio Tuma. With a sense of hopeful activism running beneath every topic, in the name of a utopia: that of a collective harmony that might finally supplant this era of division and self-obsession.

Hi, Laetitia. How are you?

Good, thanks. And you?

Good, I'm happy to finally be doing this interview!

Thank you. Well, we haven't quite done it yet, but now we're much closer. Much closer!

Indeed... So I'd inevitably like to start with a question about Françoise Hardy, who passed away just a few days ago. What did she represent for you, as a French singer and for the music of your country in general? Did she influence you in any way?

Not at first. As a young woman I identified much more with France Gall. And especially with Brigitte Fontaine. Françoise Hardy was far more subtle, more ethereal, not as immediate. She explored themes about women, but at the time I felt it was all too romantic for my punk sensibility. But she was a great singer. I particularly love the album "La Question", which she wrote with the Brazilian singer Tuca. It's absolutely beautiful. In that case, I didn't just identify with her, I also felt enriched by her songs, personally and as a woman. So, overall, I can say that Françoise Hardy was very important to me.

I think it should always be remembered that she wasn't just "the yé-yé girl of the Sixties", as many media outlets reduce her to...

Yes, absolutely. I don't know why the media always want to reduce people to just one thing. Just simply "Tous les garçons et les filles..." (she hums the song, ed.)... But she was much more than that. Her early work is almost insignificant compared to what she did and wrote afterwards, to how she evolved as a poet, as a songwriter. A highly skilled and very powerful songwriter. Not just that sweet little creature, the way women are so often labelled, as if they were, deep down, insignificant little things.

Still, I think she also made some beautiful songs in the Sixties.

Yes, of course, but then she grew and evolved further, and society often tends to suppress that kind of strong female assertion.

Let's talk about your latest album, "Rooting For Love". It came out six years after the previous one. Why did you wait so long, and what did you do in the meantime?

Well, there was a two-year lockdown in that period... I could have released an album, but I wouldn't have been able to tour it. Maybe in the future I'll put out an album without touring it, but right now it's really essential for me to be able to do that. The live element matters to me when making a record. So I simply didn't want to release anything during that time. Then I also got Covid quite badly myself, and I really didn't have the energy to put out a record. And anyway, generally speaking, I'm in no rush to release records, I need to take my time working on them. During that period I was also in the middle of a long tour with Stereolab...

Yes, I saw you near Rome, in Ciampino, in 2022... Do you remember that photo?

Oh yes, that place near Rome. I remember the photo too!

Giorgio Tuma and Marker Starling made an important contribution to my latest record: they have a classic approach to music, not a strictly experimental one. And that's my case too: I'm no John Cage, but I like to push past boundaries. I like the idea of letting the music guide me, because if I start trying to control every aspect of what I do, it doesn't sound as good.

In our OndaRock review we called “Rooting For Love” a courageous album, because it attempts to experiment within pop. Did your recent collaborations also shape the result? Can you tell us, in particular, something about your work with Giorgio Tuma and Marker Starling?

I don't know exactly how specifically an album gets influenced... Everything influences and enriches my work, but Giorgio Tuma and Marker Starling are really excellent songwriters and composers. They have a more classic way of approaching music, they're not what I'd call “experimental”, but they are exploratory in their songwriting. Still, of course everything has an impact on my writing and my explorations, and it's true that I like to push past boundaries. I like to do it my own way, very humbly, but I want to feel invincible! I'm no John Cage, I don't have that approach, but I'm still very sensitive to how my music connects to reality, to the surrounding environment. My approach is to let the music guide me, rather than dictating every single note myself. Because I've noticed that when I do that, when I try to control every aspect of the music, it doesn't sound as good. When I let myself be guided by the music instead, it's very different. And now I'm mature enough to have understood that. It becomes a sort of guided unconscious process. I'm not sure who's guiding whom! But that's not the point. The point is to let yourself be guided.

On “Rooting For Love” you also brought in a vocal group, The Choir. How did they shape your singing style?

It's no secret that I love voices. I adore The Choir. I've even sung in The Choir. There's a special power in a collective voice, and I wanted it to be present and prominent on my album: I feel very attached to that idea. And I think it's important right now to have human voices singing together as one. Another important theme of the record, in fact, is unity, as a cornerstone principle of humanity. If humanity truly wants to find its way again, it will need to seek out the reasons for unity, for collectiveness, instead of obeying the divisive nature of capitalism, this kind of 3D illusion whereby everything is separate. But that's not how it is. Everything that this kind of approach brings about is division and war. And look where we are now. We're well on the way to war, we're already living through a war and we'll be drawn deeper and deeper into it, because we're hypnotized by the idea that we're all separate entities, that we're in competition with one another, that the other is some kind of enemy. And that simply isn't true. We are one, even though each of us is different. So the choir is also meant to represent that concept.

It's the perfect demonstration of that, really...

Yes, but it also makes everything harmonic: you can hear different voices in there, because everyone is different, everyone is unique.

Everyone is different, but the result is a collective voice.

Exactly. But it's not a “fascist” voice. Fascism simply means “everyone obeys this one format.” And that is absolutely not my point of view. I want to promote the idea that everyone has something unique to contribute to the collective.

Knowing your political views, I had no doubt about that...

I have to make it clear because, you know... look at the recent results of the European elections in France...

The results of the European elections in France were a shock. It was like a blow to the stomach and in the face. That Bardella will probably win and lead us into chaos, with the state abandoning the public sphere and new social fractures opening up

Yeah, I know. Are you worried?

I had just arrived in Paris from London that Sunday, when we got the results, and I was shocked. It was like a blow to the stomach and in the face. For about a week I was in shock, even though it was expected... A similar scenario played out in Italy and, apparently, we're going to get it too. I'm pretty sure that Bardella will pull it off.

He'll win the election...

He doesn't have a program. Or rather, he has a program, but no political ideas. So we have to brace ourselves for even more chaos stemming from the state abandoning the public sphere, leaving it to private companies that will further tear apart the social fabric. So yes, it's worrying, but I don't want to be defeatist and depressed about it, even though it would be easy to be. First of all, I want to make sure we're really experiencing all of this. There's also an interesting development on the left, from the green parties to the communist party, from the socialists to the more radical La France Insoumise… they're saying "Ok, well, now we have to join forces". And they're really trying to do it.

Even though it's always very hard to find unity on the left, even in Italy. It's a big problem for the left in general, all over the world.

Yes, because they let their egos take the wheel and lose sight of the priorities that should unite them. It's all about ego. And that's also a major theme on my album: trying to see beyond the ego, because the ego is like an obstacle to discovering our true nature. There's something more within us than the ego leads us to believe. And the ego can be manipulated by the media. You know what? If you don't let your ego run you and you truly remain sovereign over yourself, you're less likely to be influenced by what others think of you. And you're also less likely to be manipulated by the media horror show that hammers us every day.

We're all traumatized, it's like a collective wound. But only we ourselves can heal it. The only form of healing is to look deeply within ourselves and stop projecting our shadow sides and our anger onto others.

On your album you make "an appeal to the traumatized populations of the planet to finally evolve beyond millennia of suffering and alienation". What specific realities are you referring to? And how do you think it's possible to carry out this mission?

It might sound strange, but that's what I've been through in recent months and years. I've received certain information from my body, from my cells, from my DNA. Yes, information from past lives knocks on my door and tells me there was trauma here and trauma there. The French Revolution lasted 10 years, the last five of which were known as "La Terreur". And I have what feel like clear memories of the years lived during "La Terreur", in particular of when I was a disabled five-year-old girl who couldn't move her legs and had been abandoned by her family, who'd had to flee urgently and left me there, to die of hunger, thirst and fear. As if I had lived it, but in another body, at another time, during the years of the Terror. It's frightening. And that's just one example from those years, and I know the French people were traumatized, betrayed, driven to the fiercest rage. It's so maddening when you're treated like dirt on purpose, so that someone can assert power and have full authority over you. So it was a historical moment when we were seeking our sovereignty as a people, and what we got instead was "La Terreur", the very opposite of what we believed was possible. We eliminated the monarchy, but we replaced it with another form of oppressive external authority, not with our freedom. So we tried and we failed. And I think we've never worked through this collective wound, never looked deeply enough at how it generated a collective malaise.

A collective wound for the whole French people…

There is a collective wound. I mean, I'm talking about the French, about my experience here. But it's just one example, because I see that the Irish are completely traumatized, and Italians too have deep wounds to heal. It's a general problem.

What's the cure?

We have the cure. We are the cure. What we need to do is dig within ourselves and look for traces of these wounds: get in touch with our past self and question it. It might have things to tell us, and we need to listen carefully. Everything out there is built so that you can avoid doing that: looking at your phone, always being busy, so you never have to reckon with yourself. But if you don't do that, you can't heal: all the bad stuff, all the good, all the evil, all the pain, even the pleasures… we have to feel them and metabolize them. If you don't do this work of introspection, on all the things about yourself you don't want to see, you'll end up projecting them onto others. And that's exactly how wars start. Look at the Jews and the Palestinians right now. It's all anger, darkness that hasn't been absorbed and is now being projected onto others. The result is wars and huge profits for a very lucrative industry…

Let's get back to music. Your solo work has moved away from the original art-kraut-pop of Stereolab, exploring territories like lounge pop, bossa nova and film music: can you tell us how your interest in these genres came about and which artists influenced you along the way?

I don't know. I'm not good at cataloguing and filing things away. But I can say that Brigitte Fontaine was really important to me. And actually, certain Brazilian music has always fascinated me too, partly because it emerged as a creative response to the fascist regime, during the dictatorship in Brazil in the late 60s and 70s.

Yes, are you referring to the Tropicália movement?

Yes, it was really important. And it's for the same reasons that I was a huge fan of McCarthy, because there was this kind of very "jingly" pop music, with beautiful songs and gorgeous melodies. It was amazing. And in the lyrics they tried to tackle the darkness of the human psyche, examining its complexity and how it would translate into the political sphere. Because Malcolm (Eden, the singer, ed.) wasn't so much interested in feelings as in seeking political answers from people. So yes, I thought they were a truly fascinating band. The transformative power of music has been a great friend to me. I was quite lonely, and music really meant so much to me: if it hadn't been for music, I don't think I would have lived very long.

Is Tim Gane, then, Stereolab's "Velvet Underground soul"?

Sure, he adores them, but so do I… I'm a huge Velvet fan. They're my foundation: Velvet Underground, Young Marble Giants… and McCarthy too. Then I've always been fascinated by Residents. But My Bloody Valentine were also fundamental for me, and the Tropicalia movement. Things like that. But the Velvet Underground were decisive: once you come into contact with them, you can't look back. It's as if you simply can't help seeing, feeling, their importance.

Projects with Stereolab? Maybe there are, but it's too early to talk about it. The problems with Tim arose from the fact that he didn't want me to be musically involved in the band, only for writing lyrics and singing. It was very frustrating for me, so I created Monade. I felt the need to finally give life to my own musical ideas. With my own rhythms, without being forced into anything anymore. Curiously, I later realized the contrast in words between mono and stereo in the two projects!

Speaking of Stereolab, it was wonderful to see you play live in Ciampino (Rome). Are there any Stereolab projects coming up?

Maybe there are, but I can't discuss it.

Can't you give us a hint?

No, it's too early, I really can't talk about it.

What's your favourite Stereolab album, or the one you feel most attached to?

I don't know. "Not Music", maybe, the last one.

Really? I wasn't expecting that… And what about the classic records?

I don't know. Honestly, I'd rather not talk about the old Stereolab records. Maybe one day we'll talk about some new Stereolab records. In the meantime, I have a new album coming out, I've got eight albums under my belt… Anyway, yes, I'm still in Stereolab. I'm also in Isidora, in the Source Ensemble, in Modern Cosmology, there's a lot to talk about!

You've also released three albums under the name Monade. Can you tell us something about that project? Is it now definitively over?

No, I never think of my projects as things that come to an end. I think of them as a continuum. I started Monade because Tim didn't want me musically involved in the band, only for writing lyrics and singing. That was very frustrating for me, because music is also my form of expression. He wanted to control it completely, but my desire to make my own music kept getting stronger. That's the power of creativity, and it's always bound to grow, whatever happens, no matter how much you try to suppress it.

You had so many ideas in a drawer and finally managed to bring them out…

I had dreams, like wet dreams, and songs that came pouring out of my dreams. So the Monade project was born from that. And it's funny, because I'd heard the term "monad", meaning unity, something that cannot be divided. And I thought, what a beautiful word… It took me a few years to realise that I was in a band with my boyfriend called Stereolab and I'd created a solo venture calling it Monade. So "mono" and "stereo". It took me three years to realise the unconscious side of my choice of name!

Actually, I'd never thought about the "mono-stereo" play on words… So with Monade did you finally feel free?

Exactly. Basically Monade was like my playground, because I couldn't play guitar all that well, I couldn't measure up to Tim Gane as a songwriter: he had far more experience, I was inexperienced and just starting out. In that playground, though, I felt safe. There were no boundaries. I wasn't trying to build a solo career and outdo Stereolab. There were no other goals except opening up a space where I felt happy and safe. Hoping to join forces with people who weren't necessarily the type to say "oh, I'm the greatest songwriter on Earth!". People who simply had the desire to make songs, to enjoy the musical process, to do it at their own pace and let it unfold, instead of forcing it. I didn't want to force things anymore, I just wanted them to emerge, in their own time.

I can understand how you felt within Stereolab. But actually, I think the role of the singer in a band is underrated: to me, it's almost as important as that of the person who writes the music. In short, I love Stereolab also, and especially, for your voice, your way of singing and interpreting the songs…

Thank you. It's also the hardest thing to do, you know, because singing is directly connected to your emotions. So you're exposing yourself directly, especially when you're not a trained singer, as in my case. I never went to opera school, so I don't have the technique to hide my emotions.

So your style is very natural, instinctive…

Yes. Writing lyrics is also very difficult, very demanding, it carries a huge responsibility! You have to use poetic or evocative words without being too on-the-nose, and you need the ability to open the doors to the imagination of the sensory and emotional field. It's an art. At first I was happy to do it, but, again, I wasn't trained for it. I did everything as we went along, and Tim would write 50 songs for an album, 35 of which we'd record. So we had to act, we had to produce very quickly. And for me it's hard to write 35 songs, 35 lyrics, in 'bam bam bam bam bam' mode.

Maybe the only real flaw of Stereolab has actually been an excess of prolificacy, at least in certain periods.

That's why we ended up with all these albums, because we had so much material! And writing lyrics, I think, is the hardest thing you can do. Writing a melody is easy, man. Tim is without a doubt a great songwriter, but he left me the hardest tasks in putting a song together. Unfortunately, it's true that the singer's work is often underrated, especially when it's a woman doing it. Her work won't be valued the same as a man's, and that's the result of millennia of patriarchy.

I agree. I think sexism is still very widespread in the music world.

We're deeply steeped in it, but in the end this patriarchal outlook serves no one, not even men themselves. They think it works in their favor, but it doesn't, because much of their sensitivity, their capacity to feel and express emotions, has been switched off. And that's dramatic. I see a lot of men who are completely lost these days. And the old methods of self-medication don't work anymore. So yes, maybe they'll go to war. Fine, go to war, kill people. If that's your plan, well, maybe you should change it. It serves no one, and at this point it puts the life of the whole planet at risk.

In my case, though, I want to defend myself: I love women singers, and at OndaRock I've always tried to give them the recognition they deserve (we laugh).

That's fantastic!

What are the latest albums you've enjoyed listening to, and which recent artists would you like to collaborate with?

As for recent artists, there's this record by Zooey… I'm terrible at remembering names. Well, I listened to the new Broadcast album, I think it's really beautiful. I'd love to collaborate with Ben LaMar Gay. Yes, let's see, what have I listened to? Oh yes, Sofia Bolt. If you like singer-songwriters, you'll love her work, she has a very broad and interesting output. What else… I like Susan James, she'll be releasing an album next month. I've already heard her record because she's a friend of mine and she played it for me, I love her songwriting, it's truly spectacular. And a Mauritanian singer, Noura Mint Seymali, her voice goes straight to my soul, the same happens with Maluma, who is also a North African singer. Very powerful artists, singers and music producers. Arto Lindsay has released a new album, I really love it, I'm a big fan of Arto. The Rrose album titled "Please Touch" is interesting. And "Ahora" by Melena is a good album… The new Oscar Mulero, "Drifting Northward Ep". And finally the new Aquaserge record, titled "La Fin de L'Economie", is truly a triumph.

Among the classics of Italian music I love Mina, a singer who truly has it all, and Lucio Battisti. But I find it incredible that Giorgio Tuma's work still hasn't been given the recognition it deserves: he has enormous talent and I'm a huge fan of his! Even in France we often fail to recognize the merits of our own artists, sometimes we even hate them, maybe because we're disgusted with ourselves.

What's your relationship with Italy like? Is there any Italian musician you like?

Is her name Mina?

Yes, Mina, the queen of Italian singers!

Yes. "Parole parole parole" (hums it, ed.). She really has it all: the songs, the voice, the attitude, the courage, and that's really remarkable. And also the songwriting and the way of producing. Of course there's a great musical tradition in Italy... Lucio Battisti... I mean, that kind of songs. But then there are also new things: for instance, I'm a huge fan of Giorgio Tuma.

Yes, we at OndaRock appreciate him too and we review his albums...

Good. I'm glad you know him, but that's not enough. I think it's really sad that Italy still hasn't been able to recognise his great talent. He should have gotten much more recognition in his own country.

Yes, he'd deserve a lot more attention.

And you know what? In France, we do the same with our artists. We hate them because we're disgusted with ourselves. We hate ourselves, and so we take it out on our own artists. And we'd rather love American artists than our own children, and so we project our self-hatred onto our own artists.

Actually, in Italy we're used to thinking that France has a much more nationalist approach than we do...

France had a bit of confidence in the success of Air, Phoenix and Daft Punk. But before that, for instance, it was tragic how much we hated ourselves in the 90s. People were so critical of each other that they would have shot you, had you dared to propose something creative...

I actually saw Air live in Rome just a few days ago... Generally speaking, I like French music.

We can safely say that we have a sort of musical identity tied to being French. I think we really need to be reassured that, ok, we can be ourselves. We don't have to hate ourselves. We can safely be creative and love what we do. It was hard for me to see what happened to Giorgio, especially during a radio show we did on national radio, they treated him so badly, as if they wanted to punish him for daring to put his creativity forward...

Really?

If you treat artists well, you encourage them. I think that's what you should do, if you're a national radio station. Instead they treated him as if they wanted to tear him down. And it was heartbreaking to witness that cruelty.

Another Italian musical genre you should like, judging from the music of Stereolab, is 60s and 70s lounge-style soundtrack music... Composers like Piccioni, Umiliani, Morricone, of course, and many others.

Yes, of course, I love that music too.

Great, so, will we see you on tour in Italy?

Yes, I'm planning to come to Italy in November. I'll go to Rome, Perugia, Milan and maybe other cities too. Stay tuned, I'll be announcing it soon!

Ok, the last question is open. Is there anything you'd like to say to our readers?

Yes, I'd like to end on this note… I've gathered from a lot of conversations that people nowadays think communism and fascism are the same thing. And they are absolutely not the same thing!

Maybe the historical form the regime took was the same, but obviously not the ideology.

Yes, the ideology is fundamentally very different, because communism fully accepts and recognizes that we are all different and that we all have something different to bring to this world, and that we should blossom as individuals within a collective, a community. At the heart of a community, everyone can make their qualities bear fruit. Fascism isn't that. Fascism is "everyone does and obeys the same authority." There will be one rule for the people and another for the ruling elite.

It's simply the end of freedom.

Yes, voilà. Achieving freedom for everyone isn't easy, because there are things that need to be taken care of. So there has to be some kind of organization. I really like Cornelius Castoriadis's analysis, where he talks about self-organization. We have to trust in our ability to self-organize, we have to do it, in order to function, so as not to be dragged into chaos. You have to put up a red light and a green light, and people need to understand that red means stop, green means go. Otherwise it's chaos. The organizing force lies within nature. Wisdom is inside us. And we have to trust that it's there. Living in a state of fear will only produce negative outcomes. Basically, we should have a lot more trust in ourselves, instead of always being suspicious. Yes, voilà.

Thank you so much, Laetitia, and good luck with everything, à bientôt!

Bye bye!

(Contributions by Gianfranco Marmoro)

(30/06/2024)

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